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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Will you make it to Heaven?

829 replies

Vincitveritas · 12/03/2023 11:54

Take the quiz and see!

jesusplusnothing.com/the-heaven-test

OP posts:
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Vincitveritas · 10/05/2023 22:09

Do you smugly tell your family and friends that they deserve to burn in hell for eternity for not sharing your beliefs

@watmel What a horrible thing to say. And no, of course I don't believe they 'deserve' Hell.

@Mustardseed86
It appears that you are now attempting to label me! But yes, we should definitely agree to disagree.

You are assuming your view is correct and equates to that of Gods even though many Christians disagree, are these Christian’s tools of Satan? That is vanity, that is pride.

@OMG12 I'm sorry, but I can’t make any sense of that at all.

@poweredbysteam Never said I was surprised. While Christians might be in the world, we should not be of the world.

Or whatever atheist Hell is. Probably watching the same episode of Love Island over and over again for all eternity.
😆Probably @pointythings

I found a video (again!), this time from Father Mike Schmitz. He's a Catholic Priest and although we differ on some key points (the list of conditions) the core message is the same:

OP posts:
Vincitveritas · 10/05/2023 22:23

As I don’t acknowledge god/Jesus I’m not asking anything of them.

an imaginary god we don’t believe in, can have no judgement over our lives or actions. It’s threatening language which is not correct. Why should we face up to this?

@Parker231 This sort of attitude always reminds me of the Dwarfs in C.S Lewis' The Last Battle:

'...Lucy led the way and soon they could all see the Dwarfs. They had a very odd look. They weren’t strolling about or enjoying themselves (although the cords with which they had been tied seemed to have vanished) nor were they lying down and having a rest. They were sitting very close together in a little circle facing one another. They never looked round or took any notice of the humans till Lucy and Tirian were almost near enough to touch them. Then the Dwarfs all cocked their heads as if they couldn’t see anyone but were listening hard and trying to guess by the sound what was happening. “Look out!” said one of them in a surly voice. “Mind where you’re going. Don’t walk into our faces!” “All right!” said Eustace indignantly. “We’re not blind. We’ve got eyes in our heads.” “They must be darn good ones if you can see in here,” said the same Dwarf whose name was Diggle. “In where?” asked Edmund. “Why you bone-head, in here of course,” said Diggle. “In this pitch- black, poky, smelly little hole of a stable.” “Are you blind?” said Tirian. “Ain’t we all blind in the dark!” said Diggle. “But it isn’t dark, you poor stupid Dwarfs,” said Lucy. “Can’t you see? Look up! Look round! Can’t you see the sky and the trees and the flowers? Can’t you see me?” “How in the name of all Humbug can I see what ain’t there? And how can I see you any more than you can see me in this pitch darkness?” “But I can see you,” said Lucy. “I’ll prove I can see you. You’ve got a pipe in your mouth.” “Anyone that knows the smell of baccy could tell that,” said Diggle. “Oh the poor things! This is dreadful,” said Lucy. Then she had an idea. She stooped and picked some wild violets. “Listen, Dwarf,” she said. “Even if your eyes are wrong, perhaps your nose is all right: can you smell that?” She leaned across and held the fresh, damp flowers to Diggle’s ugly nose. But she had to jump back quickly in order to avoid a blow from his hard little fist. “None of that!” he shouted. “How dare you! What do you mean by shoving a lot of filthy stable-litter in my face? There was a thistle in it too. It’s like your sauce! And who are you, anyway?” “Earth-man,” said Tirian, “she is the Queen Lucy, sent hither by Aslan out of the deep past. And it is for her sake alone that I, Tirian your lawful King, do not cut all your heads from your shoulders, proved and twice-proved traitors that you are.” “Well if that doesn’t beat everything!” exclaimed Diggle. “How can you go on talking all that rot? Your wonderful Lion didn’t come and help you, did he? Thought not. And now—even now—when you’ve been beaten and shoved into this black hole, just the same as the rest of us, you’re still at your old game. Starting a new lie! Trying to make us believe we’re none of us shut up, and it ain’t dark, and heaven knows what.” “There is no black hole, save in your own fancy, fool,” cried Tirian. “Come out of it.” And, leaning forward, he caught Diggle by the belt and the hood and swung him right out of the circle of Dwarfs. But the moment Tirian put him down, Diggle darted back to his place among the others, rubbing his nose and howling: “Ow! Ow! What d’you do that for! Banging my face against the wall. You’ve nearly broken my nose.”
...“Aslan,” said Lucy through her tears, “could you—will you—do something for these poor Dwarfs?” “Dearest,” said Aslan, “I will show you both what I can, and what I cannot, do.” He came close to the Dwarfs and gave a low growl: low, but it set all the air shaking. But the Dwarfs said to one another, “Hear that? That’s the gang at the other end of the stable. Trying to frighten us. They do it with a machine of some kind. Don’t take any notice. They won’t take us in again!” Aslan raised his head and shook his mane. Instantly a glorious feast appeared on the Dwarfs’ knees: pies and tongues and pigeons and trifles and ices, and each Dwarf had a goblet of good wine in his right hand. But it wasn’t much use. They began eating and drinking greedily enough, but it was clear that they couldn’t taste it properly. They thought they were eating and drinking only the sort of things you might find in a stable. One said he was trying to eat hay and another said he had got a bit of an old turnip and a third said he’d found a raw cabbage leaf. And they raised golden goblets of rich red wine to their lips and said “Ugh! Fancy drinking dirty water out of a trough that a donkey’s been at! Never thought we’d come to this.” But very soon every Dwarf began suspecting that every other Dwarf had found something nicer than he had, and they started grabbing and snatching, and went on to quarreling, till in a few minutes there was a free fight and all the good food was smeared on their faces and clothes or trodden under foot. But when at last they sat down to nurse their black eyes and their bleeding noses, they all said: “Well, at any rate there’s no Humbug here. We haven’t let anyone take us in. The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs.” “You see,” said Aslan. “They will not let us help them. They have chosen cunning instead of belief. Their prison is only in their own minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they cannot be taken out.

OP posts:
poweredbysteam · 10/05/2023 22:36

Never said I was surprised. While Christians might be in the world, we should not be of the world

What does that mean exactly? What does that have to do with women and gay people being put off by Christianitys treatment of them?

Parker231 · 10/05/2023 22:50

@Vincitveritas - I haven’t got a clue what your CS Lewis quote has to do with me not believing in your god. As I have said (on more than one post) - I don’t believe in god, heaven or hell.

No wonder church numbers are dropping when Christians continue to try and threaten non believers for not being worried about whether they’ll end up in hell. Sounds like it’s something you should be concerned about.

Anthillveggie · 10/05/2023 23:14

OP, do you have original thoughts or did you just start this thread to spam walls of text the bible, random Christian blogs and now Narnia? Because I don't think that's going to convince anyone to join your religion.

OMG12 · 10/05/2023 23:17

Vincitveritas · 10/05/2023 22:09

Do you smugly tell your family and friends that they deserve to burn in hell for eternity for not sharing your beliefs

@watmel What a horrible thing to say. And no, of course I don't believe they 'deserve' Hell.

@Mustardseed86
It appears that you are now attempting to label me! But yes, we should definitely agree to disagree.

You are assuming your view is correct and equates to that of Gods even though many Christians disagree, are these Christian’s tools of Satan? That is vanity, that is pride.

@OMG12 I'm sorry, but I can’t make any sense of that at all.

@poweredbysteam Never said I was surprised. While Christians might be in the world, we should not be of the world.

Or whatever atheist Hell is. Probably watching the same episode of Love Island over and over again for all eternity.
😆Probably @pointythings

I found a video (again!), this time from Father Mike Schmitz. He's a Catholic Priest and although we differ on some key points (the list of conditions) the core message is the same:

Not sure what’s so confusing but..,

  1. I’m not a Gnostic
  2. its perfectly possible to reject the black and white concept of the bible being objectively true or not. It can be read snd interpreted subjectively and on many levels
  3. we can all have our own truths regarding spirituality (which would include the concepts within Christianity)
your CS Lewis quote only serves to underline the fact that allegory is an extremely effective way of putting across concepts in a more easily understood and memorable manner. It is a technique as old as time. Presumably you don’t consider God to be a talking lion so why do you accept Jesus is the son of God? Or why the Jewish Mystic Paul who never met Jesus should be able to dictate the lives of billions?
Parker231 · 11/05/2023 09:05

@Vincitveritas - how did you score? Is your path heading you towards heaven or hell?

watmel · 11/05/2023 09:16

@watmel What a horrible thing to say. And no, of course I don't believe they 'deserve' Hell.

Not as horrible as threatening people with hell.

And you worship a god who - according to you - sends anyone who doesn't worship him to hell. Does that mean you disagree with god?

Mustardseed86 · 11/05/2023 11:30

Parker231 · 11/05/2023 09:05

@Vincitveritas - how did you score? Is your path heading you towards heaven or hell?

I think the point of the quiz from a Christian point of view is that nobody gets 100% - because the 'spirit' is willing but the 'flesh' is weak. In other words we all have a conscience and basically we want to be good people, but we don't always get it right. That's all that is meant by sin, in the sense of anything we may struggle with in our lives and anything we specifically do that goes against the moral law.

But we don't need to be discouraged by this because we have been reconciled with God the Father through Jesus, and we have the Holy Spirit as a guide and helper which means even as we struggle in the physical world, we are undergoing a process of sanctification and growing in faith and goodness. We are always forgiven and God is not angry with us over our sins. I hope that makes things a bit clearer.

Parker231 · 11/05/2023 11:35

Mustardseed86 · 11/05/2023 11:30

I think the point of the quiz from a Christian point of view is that nobody gets 100% - because the 'spirit' is willing but the 'flesh' is weak. In other words we all have a conscience and basically we want to be good people, but we don't always get it right. That's all that is meant by sin, in the sense of anything we may struggle with in our lives and anything we specifically do that goes against the moral law.

But we don't need to be discouraged by this because we have been reconciled with God the Father through Jesus, and we have the Holy Spirit as a guide and helper which means even as we struggle in the physical world, we are undergoing a process of sanctification and growing in faith and goodness. We are always forgiven and God is not angry with us over our sins. I hope that makes things a bit clearer.

Hi - irrelevant to non believers. God/Holy Spirit does exist for us (thankfully) so not looking for any help. I don’t struggle in this world and not looking for forgiveness for how I live my life.
Why hold ‘sin’ over people?

Mustardseed86 · 11/05/2023 12:16

It may be irrelevant to you, but you were asking VincitVeritas whether she was on a path to heaven or hell. So I gave a Christian view in response to that question. I'm not holding anything over you but I do believe in the reality of matters of faith, any Christian person would say the same thing.

Perhaps you feel that it's wrong to give a view, but you are here discussing it and asked the question so I'm not sure what you were looking for if so.

In any case I'm sure you're a very good person - please don't think I'm somehow trying to give you a guilt complex! If we are loving people then that's a wonderful thing and fulfills the moral law/golden rule. Hopefully we can agree on that.

pointythings · 11/05/2023 13:36

@Mustardseed86 but the moral law is the whole problem here. Whose morals? Who gets to decide? Why don't they get adapted to the world they operate in? It's not good enough.

Parker231 · 11/05/2023 13:59

What do Christians think will happen to non believers when they die?

Mustardseed86 · 11/05/2023 14:20

I think we all have follow the light of our own conscience. Do as you would be done by, love and serve others. Don't overcomplicate it. Generally we decide as a society, broadly speaking. I would bring God into that, you wouldn't, but we're not necessarily at odds in terms of right and wrong are we?

If you're talking about reproductive rights and gay rights and sexual ethics in general then yes, that's a whole thing. I'm happy to talk about it although only from my own perspective. And I've been around the block a few times!😁

Mustardseed86 · 11/05/2023 14:30

Parker231 · 11/05/2023 13:59

What do Christians think will happen to non believers when they die?

Well... I think we will all meet God, Christian and non-Christian alike. I'm not entirely sure about all the specifics but I have faith that we will all make it to heaven one day. Irrelevant to you though, as I'm sure you will tell me :)

Parker231 · 11/05/2023 14:36

Mustardseed86 · 11/05/2023 14:30

Well... I think we will all meet God, Christian and non-Christian alike. I'm not entirely sure about all the specifics but I have faith that we will all make it to heaven one day. Irrelevant to you though, as I'm sure you will tell me :)

Thank you for responding although not sure I can meet something which I don’t believe exists? When I die I’m going to a whole in the ground!

Why will we all go to heaven not hell? I thought we were all sinners?

speakout · 11/05/2023 14:50

Mustardseed86 · 11/05/2023 14:30

Well... I think we will all meet God, Christian and non-Christian alike. I'm not entirely sure about all the specifics but I have faith that we will all make it to heaven one day. Irrelevant to you though, as I'm sure you will tell me :)

That's not being christian though is it?

That everyone goes to heaven.
Your bible is very clear- there is only one way to "redemption" and that is accepting christ as your saviour. Did jesus die for no reason? What was the point of his bad weekend otherwise?

Heathens don't get to heaven.
What's the point in being christian if you go to heaven regardless?

It's may be your cute and fluffy view, but it isn't christian.
The bible is pretty clear on that point.

Mustardseed86 · 11/05/2023 14:51

Hi @Parker231

I don't know how else I can answer... it's like you think there's a different reality depending on what you believe in it or not? Sorry, I don't mean to be rude but we seem to be talking at cross purposes all the time.

I have talked about my beliefs a bit on here so again I don't know if you want me to say the same thing a different way or if there's something really bothering you. Please say, if so. Do you feel I'm trying to make you worry that you're sinful and then inconsistently saying it's all fine anyway? It's difficult to know how to explain to someone who thinks it's all imaginary anyway. I could talk about the nature of God, the things Jesus said, certain passages of the Bible etc but then won't you think I'm putting more 'irrelevant' stuff on you? So I think you'd have to at least be open to there being a God for this to even be a conversation worth having, and you aren't, so I would probably just annoy you!

pointythings · 11/05/2023 14:53

@Mustardseed86 I can't help but contrast your philosophy with @Vincitveritas , who calls it all 'sexual immorality ' if it isn't one man and one woman in a (presumably) Christian sanctioned marriage.

Mustardseed86 · 11/05/2023 15:11

@speakout

There are different passages within the Bible, different meanings, different beliefs and different denominations.

The point of Jesus's sacrifice is to redeem the world, not 20%-ish? of the world's population. And if you're calling it his 'bad weekend', then I'm not too worried about your opinion on my sacred book, and I doubt you care about mine.

Mustardseed86 · 11/05/2023 15:11

pointythings · 11/05/2023 14:53

@Mustardseed86 I can't help but contrast your philosophy with @Vincitveritas , who calls it all 'sexual immorality ' if it isn't one man and one woman in a (presumably) Christian sanctioned marriage.

To be fair, I don't think you know my philosophy though?

Pallisers · 11/05/2023 15:31

Actually Jesus made quite clear the criteria for getting into heaven in Matthew 25. 31-46. It seems to be fairly simple

Give food to the hungry
Give drink to the thirsty
Take care of the stranger
Cloth those who need it
Take care of the sick
Visit those in prison

Whether you believe or not or believe in a different faith or whatever, this always seemed to me to be a pretty decent way to live. Pity most christian faiths seem to ignore it completely in favour of the old testament stuff (like the original quiz)

AnorLondo · 11/05/2023 15:40

pointythings · 11/05/2023 14:53

@Mustardseed86 I can't help but contrast your philosophy with @Vincitveritas , who calls it all 'sexual immorality ' if it isn't one man and one woman in a (presumably) Christian sanctioned marriage.

The fact that many Christians don't have any problem with gay people and same-sex relationships makes me think that many of those who don't are just trying to justify existing prejudice.

pointythings · 11/05/2023 16:01

@Mustardseed86 I don't, but it isn't ugly, Biblically literalist and hardliners based on your posts, and that will do me.

Mustardseed86 · 11/05/2023 18:33

pointythings · 11/05/2023 16:01

@Mustardseed86 I don't, but it isn't ugly, Biblically literalist and hardliners based on your posts, and that will do me.

No. I do think sexual ethics is an important area though simply because sex itself is an important part of human life and experience. But any modern, secular person would agree with that as far as sexual exploitation and abuse are concerned.

When I say I've been around the block a bit I'm obviously being a bit irreverant but I guess I would say that I've learnt from experience and with more time and wisdom that the principle of a faithful and exclusive relationship is a good one. I would include gay relationships in that but I know many sincere Christians don't feel they can. I respect that as long as they're not pushing conversion therapy on people, which is both ineffective and abhorrent. The other hot potato issue is abortion, which I think is a matter for personal conscience again. Respect for life but also for bodily autonomy is my position, I don't think I would have an abortion and have been in a position where there was quite a lot of pressure on me to do so, but I don't judge others who have or do.