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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Will you make it to Heaven?

829 replies

Vincitveritas · 12/03/2023 11:54

Take the quiz and see!

jesusplusnothing.com/the-heaven-test

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carbonarya · 18/04/2023 17:55

It's a huge deal. God is the very source of life, love, peace, joy, light and healing. Without God, there is nothing. Again, I really don't want to focus on the 'other place' but it is about as horrific as you can imagine and then some.

Yeah I can see why you don't want to talk about 'the other place'. Threatening people with unimaginable horror doesn't exactly endear people to your religion.

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 18:21

@Parker231 Again, not believing in something doesn't make it go away.

@carbonarya Less of a threat, more of a warning.

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Parker231 · 18/04/2023 18:26

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 18:21

@Parker231 Again, not believing in something doesn't make it go away.

@carbonarya Less of a threat, more of a warning.

So what will happen to me ? Sounds like a threat to me.

carbonarya · 18/04/2023 18:29

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 18:21

@Parker231 Again, not believing in something doesn't make it go away.

@carbonarya Less of a threat, more of a warning.

It's the god that you worship and follow who I'd making the threat, so your kind on endorsing it.

pointythings · 18/04/2023 18:30

carbonarya · 18/04/2023 18:29

It's the god that you worship and follow who I'd making the threat, so your kind on endorsing it.

Exactly this. It's 'believe in me and do what I say, or else'.

Deity as despot, in a nutshell.

Parker231 · 18/04/2023 18:34

pointythings · 18/04/2023 18:30

Exactly this. It's 'believe in me and do what I say, or else'.

Deity as despot, in a nutshell.

I think I’m safe - something which doesn’t exist can’t threaten anyone!

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 18:42

I'm starting to think this may be the point at which I should 'shake the dust off my feet'...

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bossonext · 18/04/2023 19:57

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 18:42

I'm starting to think this may be the point at which I should 'shake the dust off my feet'...

Not enough converts? Or too many questions you can't answer?

Blaueblumen · 18/04/2023 22:24

What about the logistics of it all? Where is 'heaven' and how do people get there? How do they all fit in? What do they do all day???

OMG12 · 18/04/2023 23:43

Blaueblumen · 18/04/2023 22:24

What about the logistics of it all? Where is 'heaven' and how do people get there? How do they all fit in? What do they do all day???

Heaven would have to exist outside of space time therefore those questions really have no meaning with regards to heaven

OMG12 · 18/04/2023 23:50

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 11:32

@OMG12 I've already addressed your first two questions. It's important to not get carried away about the what if's, particularly if it might lead some to a misunderstanding. As for the various denominations, it's usually to do with differences in preference surrounding leadership, doctrine, interpretation of Scripture, worship styles etc. That doesn't necessarily mean they can't be in harmony with each other.

those are excellent questions which really do demand an answer.

@pointythings Anybody who 'demands' an answer will not be getting one, believe me.

you only want people to talk about how wonderful your religion is

@bossonext What gave you that impression?

Sorry. I have read all your posts, I will go back and re read and look at in the context of the bible but I can’t see how they answer my questions but will revisit.

I do think the only real explanation is that all people go to the same place.

Timeflieswhenyourehavingfun · 19/04/2023 00:53

Honest question OP and not intended to be goady and apologies if you have answered already,
do you believe you are going to heaven ? and do you believe in hell ?

Timeflieswhenyourehavingfun · 19/04/2023 00:55

As a lapsed Catholic and very much on the road to being an atheist I have found this a very interesting topic and very impressed by the knowledge of various religions held.

bossonext · 19/04/2023 01:00

Timeflieswhenyourehavingfun · 19/04/2023 00:53

Honest question OP and not intended to be goady and apologies if you have answered already,
do you believe you are going to heaven ? and do you believe in hell ?

OP has already threatened us sinners with eternal damnation.

PollyThePixie · 19/04/2023 03:54

OMG12 · 14/04/2023 15:46

I love that.

Beautiful

speakout · 19/04/2023 06:51

It's the deserving of hell thing that is insulting to me.
I am an atheist in a family of fervent christians.

They tell me I will be tortured forever in hell for my non belief..
The act they think I am deserving of that disgusts me.
I have never gone out of my way to harm to harm anyone, yet I am worthy of eternal damnation.

Blaueblumen · 19/04/2023 07:27

He cannot let anything imperfect reside in Heaven else it wouldn't be perfect anymore

Who would want to spend the rest of eternity living in perfection? That sounds so boring. Would anyone want to live forever anyway?

OMG12 · 19/04/2023 07:28

speakout · 19/04/2023 06:51

It's the deserving of hell thing that is insulting to me.
I am an atheist in a family of fervent christians.

They tell me I will be tortured forever in hell for my non belief..
The act they think I am deserving of that disgusts me.
I have never gone out of my way to harm to harm anyone, yet I am worthy of eternal damnation.

Well they’re not very good at following their own Bible

Luke 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”

Romans 14:13-23
“ Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love.”

But then again, in a big hypocritical U turn on the idea of forgiveness

Matthew 18:6

“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”

My Grandad played the church organ for 60 years, he was v vocal and educated about the Bible as he went to church every week to play. He was a really non/ conformist poss agnostic person. But he was great at finding a verse to contradict any other verse in the Bible. It is after all a collection of books written by different people over several hundred years across geographical areas (large portions of it prob being nicked from other belief systems)

Blaueblumen · 19/04/2023 07:31

I am however convinced, as much as anyone can be, that we are immortal souls who happen to have bodies.

As much as anyone can be?

Given that there is zero evidence, probably not very then?

OMG12 · 19/04/2023 07:48

Blaueblumen · 19/04/2023 07:27

He cannot let anything imperfect reside in Heaven else it wouldn't be perfect anymore

Who would want to spend the rest of eternity living in perfection? That sounds so boring. Would anyone want to live forever anyway?

It’s ok cos none of us are getting in at that rate

Matthew 11:28-30

“He doesn't want you striving so hard to achieve, all on your own. He wants to provide you rest. You don't need to carry a heavy burden by yourself; Jesus will help you carry it. He will do the heavy lifting for you, so you aren't weighed down by the pursuit of perfection.”

But in the original Greek the word was teleios which means to be mature or whole (prob confused with being perfect when it was translated into Latin). What does it mean to be mature or whole? It means to have wisdom, understanding and balance. Some Christians certainly aren’t meeting those criteria

Parker231 · 19/04/2023 14:43

speakout · 19/04/2023 06:51

It's the deserving of hell thing that is insulting to me.
I am an atheist in a family of fervent christians.

They tell me I will be tortured forever in hell for my non belief..
The act they think I am deserving of that disgusts me.
I have never gone out of my way to harm to harm anyone, yet I am worthy of eternal damnation.

I don’t think many who class themselves as christian should expect to go to heaven - their religion discriminates against those wanting a same sex marriage and doesn’t support a woman’s rights to decide about her body when it comes to the right to an abortion.

carbonarya · 19/04/2023 14:54

Parker231 · 19/04/2023 14:43

I don’t think many who class themselves as christian should expect to go to heaven - their religion discriminates against those wanting a same sex marriage and doesn’t support a woman’s rights to decide about her body when it comes to the right to an abortion.

There are still people out there who think gay people go to hell and people who discriminate and even sentence gay people to prison or death go to heaven. It's fucked.

Vincitveritas · 19/04/2023 22:42

There's a lot to address here, so I'm sorry if I miss anything.

Not enough converts? Or too many questions you can't answer?

@bossonext Neither, it's the lack of respect that bothers me. There's plenty of questions I or indeed anyone can't answer and that's ok.

What about the logistics of it all? Where is 'heaven' and how do people get there? How do they all fit in? What do they do all day???

@Blaueblumen As OMG12 said, it exists outside of time and space - in another dimension, if you will. We travel there in spirit. There isn't really such a thing as a 'day' in Heaven, time works differently there. As for some of the activities, see my very long post on the Pastor's thoughts about this.

I do think the only real explanation is that all people go to the same place.

@OMG12 Why do you think this though? I know you feel the Bible is not a reliable source of truth and knowledge, but I do. It is very clear that not everyone will be allowed into Heaven.

do you believe you are going to heaven ? and do you believe in hell ?

@Timeflieswhenyourehavingfun
To the first question, I obviously hope so but it's not really my place to say.
To the second, yes I believe in hell in the traditional, literal sense.

OP has already threatened us sinners with eternal damnation

@bossonext As I've said I'm not threatening anybody. We will all have to face God one day and give an account of our lives.

It's the deserving of hell thing that is insulting to me.
The act they think I am deserving of that disgusts me.

I think you've misunderstood. We are all sinners and stand condemned before God. We cannot rely on working our way into Heaven. God has given us a life line, a way to be made right with Him. It's not our place to judge or look down on anyone. The only difference between us is that I have chosen to put my faith and trust in Jesus and you have not. That's it.

Who would want to spend the rest of eternity living in perfection? That sounds so boring. Would anyone want to live forever anyway?

@Blaueblumen I suppose it depends on how you like to have fun! Maybe I have an overactive imagination, but I don't think it would ever get boring. Living forever in this world, as it is now - no I definitely wouldn't want to. Living forever in a utopia with a perfected body, free of pain, suffering and death on the other hand, would be a different matter.

@OMG12 While I am in full agreement on not judging, you've taken those Bible verses out of context. Romans 14, for example, is instructing early Christians to not judge each other about what sorts of foods they choose to eat or abstain from.
I'm interested which translation you used for Matthew 11? It's not one I recognise. Please see what I said to Speakout - we are all sinners, humanity is currently in a 'fallen' state.

I don’t think many who class themselves as christian should expect to go to heaven - their religion discriminates against those wanting a same sex marriage and doesn’t support a woman’s rights to decide about her body when it comes to the right to an abortion.

@Parker231 I think you have that backwards. Some Christians take that stance because they believe that it goes against God's wishes, it has nothing to do with 'religion'.

There are still people out there who think gay people go to hell and people who discriminate and even sentence gay people to prison or death go to heaven. It's fucked.

@carbonarya Like I said, without Jesus we all go to hell. It is not our place to judge - God alone has the right to do that.

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bossonext · 19/04/2023 23:44

@bossonext Neither, it's the lack of respect that bothers me. There's plenty of questions I or indeed anyone can't answer and that's ok.

Why should I respect someone who tells me I deserve to be tortured for eternity?

I've said I'm not threatening anybody. We will all have to face God one day and give an account of our lives.

That's a threat. If you tell me I'm going to be tortured if I don't share your beliefs that's a threat.

I think you have that backwards. Some Christians take that stance because they believe that it goes against God's wishes, it has nothing to do with 'religion'.

If they believe its against gods wishes then it's everything to do with religion.

Vincitveritas · 19/04/2023 23:55

Just realised I forgot to tag @speakout.

@bossonext I'm sorry you feel like that.

This video from Joe Kirby is 20 minutes long but it covers some great points and he explains the basics far better than I could:

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