Page 19 | Will you make it to Heaven?

Vincitveritas · 2023-03-12T11:54:59+00:00

Take the quiz and see! https://jesusplusnothing.com/the-heaven-test

Parker231 · 20/04/2023 00:01

Now your classing us all as sinners - I’m not!

Hawkins003 · 20/04/2023 00:07

I'm certainly a sinner, as I believe all religions are written by human's for humans.

Original poster

Vincitveritas · 20/04/2023 00:21

@Parker231 That's irrelevant I'm afraid

@Hawkins003 At least your honest about it. 😄

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Original poster

Vincitveritas · 20/04/2023 00:23

Oops - you're!

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carbonarya · 20/04/2023 00:27

Vincitveritas · 19/04/2023 23:55

Just realised I forgot to tag @speakout.

@bossonext I'm sorry you feel like that.

This video from Joe Kirby is 20 minutes long but it covers some great points and he explains the basics far better than I could:

A click bait youtube listicle from someone who likes to complain about wokeness and how evil Harry Potter is and how Lil Nas X makes him cry. Well I'm convinvd.

Parker231 · 20/04/2023 00:29

Vincitveritas · 20/04/2023 00:21

@Parker231 That's irrelevant I'm afraid

@Hawkins003 At least your honest about it. 😄

Of course it is - if I’m not a sinner I can’t go to the hell everyone is being threatened with.

LucifersLight · 20/04/2023 00:52

“What will i do on judgement day?”

I’ll tell the invisible fairy to go fuck himself.

”I’ll be fine, don’t pray for my sins, I’m going down singing unholy hymns”

Original poster

Vincitveritas · 20/04/2023 00:54

@carbonarya Nice of you to check out some of the other vids. 👌

@Parker231 That's a strange way of looking at it. We are all sinners in God's sight.

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Original poster

Vincitveritas · 20/04/2023 01:01

@LucifersLight Looks like you've made up your mind where you're going to spend eternity.

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carbonarya · 20/04/2023 01:43

Vincitveritas · 20/04/2023 00:54

@carbonarya Nice of you to check out some of the other vids. 👌

@Parker231 That's a strange way of looking at it. We are all sinners in God's sight.

I did, he's slightly deranged.

Original poster

Vincitveritas · 20/04/2023 02:03

@carbonarya That's very personal. I don't think it's fair to criticize someone when they're not able to defend themselves.

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Parker231 · 20/04/2023 06:54

Vincitveritas · 20/04/2023 00:54

@carbonarya Nice of you to check out some of the other vids. 👌

@Parker231 That's a strange way of looking at it. We are all sinners in God's sight.

What’s strange? I’m not living my life by the rules of your god. I live to a higher standard so as I’m not a sinner-,no hell for me.

speakout · 20/04/2023 08:31

I agree.
I am not a "sinful" person. I am not a "sinner".

The whole christian idea of being born into sin for simply being human is fucked up.
"We are all sinners" - no , because I don't accept the christian standards on morality. In their eyes I am sinful for having sex outside marriage, for sexual orientation, even for thinking it would be fun to shag an attractive man I see.

Another piece of horseshit is one I hear frequently- " None of us are perfect". ( often paired with the ideaa that god s perfect- and not something us mere humans can ever attain)

Well actually I am perfect. I am a perfect human, with all the bunde of attributes, fears, abilities, emotions that contains.

Imagine a herd of elephants at a watering hole- beautiful creatures- the idea that none of them are " perfect" is a nonsense. They are all perfect at being elephants, some may be stroppy, they have differences,some timid or have scars- but they are all perfect at being elephants.

Just as I am perfect at being homo sapien.

The idea of a perfect human seen throught the eyes of christianity sounds gruesome, some weird dystopian Stepford wife.

I am happy living a life free of sin in a way that makes me a perfect human animal.

Parker231 · 20/04/2023 08:35

speakout · 20/04/2023 08:31

I agree.
I am not a "sinful" person. I am not a "sinner".

The whole christian idea of being born into sin for simply being human is fucked up.
"We are all sinners" - no , because I don't accept the christian standards on morality. In their eyes I am sinful for having sex outside marriage, for sexual orientation, even for thinking it would be fun to shag an attractive man I see.

Another piece of horseshit is one I hear frequently- " None of us are perfect". ( often paired with the ideaa that god s perfect- and not something us mere humans can ever attain)

Well actually I am perfect. I am a perfect human, with all the bunde of attributes, fears, abilities, emotions that contains.

Imagine a herd of elephants at a watering hole- beautiful creatures- the idea that none of them are " perfect" is a nonsense. They are all perfect at being elephants, some may be stroppy, they have differences,some timid or have scars- but they are all perfect at being elephants.

Just as I am perfect at being homo sapien.

The idea of a perfect human seen throught the eyes of christianity sounds gruesome, some weird dystopian Stepford wife.

I am happy living a life free of sin in a way that makes me a perfect human animal.

Well put! If having sex before marriage is sinful, this heaven we are meant to be aspiring to is going to be very empty!

pointythings · 20/04/2023 09:23

@speakout this is exactly how I feel about it. The concept of sin is a human construct used to control people, make them feel bad and guilty about being who they are and keep them in line with what the powers of the time want. It's all bullshit.

Perfection is an unhealthy thing to strive for in any case. Perfectionism is incredibly damaging to one's mental health.

carbonarya · 20/04/2023 09:40

Vincitveritas · 20/04/2023 02:03

@carbonarya That's very personal. I don't think it's fair to criticize someone when they're not able to defend themselves.

He put himself in the public eye. And he criticises plenty of people on his videos.

Do you also think we shouldn't be able to criticise politicians?

OMG12 · 20/04/2023 13:29

Vincitveritas · 19/04/2023 22:42

There's a lot to address here, so I'm sorry if I miss anything.

Not enough converts? Or too many questions you can't answer?

@bossonext Neither, it's the lack of respect that bothers me. There's plenty of questions I or indeed anyone can't answer and that's ok.

What about the logistics of it all? Where is 'heaven' and how do people get there? How do they all fit in? What do they do all day???

@Blaueblumen As OMG12 said, it exists outside of time and space - in another dimension, if you will. We travel there in spirit. There isn't really such a thing as a 'day' in Heaven, time works differently there. As for some of the activities, see my very long post on the Pastor's thoughts about this.

I do think the only real explanation is that all people go to the same place.

@OMG12 Why do you think this though? I know you feel the Bible is not a reliable source of truth and knowledge, but I do. It is very clear that not everyone will be allowed into Heaven.

do you believe you are going to heaven ? and do you believe in hell ?

@Timeflieswhenyourehavingfun
To the first question, I obviously hope so but it's not really my place to say.
To the second, yes I believe in hell in the traditional, literal sense.

OP has already threatened us sinners with eternal damnation

@bossonext As I've said I'm not threatening anybody. We will all have to face God one day and give an account of our lives.

It's the deserving of hell thing that is insulting to me.
The act they think I am deserving of that disgusts me.

I think you've misunderstood. We are all sinners and stand condemned before God. We cannot rely on working our way into Heaven. God has given us a life line, a way to be made right with Him. It's not our place to judge or look down on anyone. The only difference between us is that I have chosen to put my faith and trust in Jesus and you have not. That's it.

Who would want to spend the rest of eternity living in perfection? That sounds so boring. Would anyone want to live forever anyway?

@Blaueblumen I suppose it depends on how you like to have fun! Maybe I have an overactive imagination, but I don't think it would ever get boring. Living forever in this world, as it is now - no I definitely wouldn't want to. Living forever in a utopia with a perfected body, free of pain, suffering and death on the other hand, would be a different matter.

@OMG12 While I am in full agreement on not judging, you've taken those Bible verses out of context. Romans 14, for example, is instructing early Christians to not judge each other about what sorts of foods they choose to eat or abstain from.
I'm interested which translation you used for Matthew 11? It's not one I recognise. Please see what I said to Speakout - we are all sinners, humanity is currently in a 'fallen' state.

I don’t think many who class themselves as christian should expect to go to heaven - their religion discriminates against those wanting a same sex marriage and doesn’t support a woman’s rights to decide about her body when it comes to the right to an abortion.

@Parker231 I think you have that backwards. Some Christians take that stance because they believe that it goes against God's wishes, it has nothing to do with 'religion'.

There are still people out there who think gay people go to hell and people who discriminate and even sentence gay people to prison or death go to heaven. It's fucked.

@carbonarya Like I said, without Jesus we all go to hell. It is not our place to judge - God alone has the right to do that.

Everyone going to heaven/the afterlife is the only thing that makes sense because if you assume man has divine origins, then that must be all of mankind from the beginning of time. All the people across time and geographies who had various spiritual practices. Yet you are asking us to assume this omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient god decided several thousand years after his creation only a small number of people in a tiny area of the med were suitable candidates to get into heaven, then he changed his mind a bit and added in the clause that that people would only get in if they added on believing his son was the messiah. Why did he allow all the rest of his creation to go off on tangents? Unless they weren’t tangents just different expressions of the same fundamental spiritual knowledge expressed locally - you might say is it an elephant or camel going through the eye of a needle. Was it Noah and the flood or the carpenters in the tale of Gilgamarsh who built the ark??

this brings me into the quote from Paul which I used purposefully. The Jews were Gods chosen people. Their law was that handed to them by God. Yet Paul decided (contrary to much of the very early Jesus cult practice ) that actually you didn’t have to be a Jew (ie one of Gods chosen people who presumably were the only ones who could be perfect and those rules don’t apply anymore. Potentially based on end of times predictions in the Old Testament, but most likely driven by a desire to up numbers and set up shop away from Jewish law. It goes to show that being perfect is arbitrary- the Jews move from being Gods chosen people adhering to Gods law to a bit of a free for all.

But then Paul’s eschatology was a bit crap and was certain Jesus was coming back in his life time (like so many) but prob indicates he had no more of a hotline to God than the rest of us.

Maybe we can all have our own road to Damascus moment? And decide between us a God what’s right. The difference being we prob should write over half of a book that leads to murder torture and misery

Blaueblumen · 20/04/2023 14:01

it exists outside of time and space - in another dimension, if you will. We travel there in spirit. There isn't really such a thing as a 'day' in Heaven, time works differently there.

Wow, heaven sounds very complicated. I wonder who thought of this!

OMG12 · 20/04/2023 14:20

OMG12 · 20/04/2023 13:29

Everyone going to heaven/the afterlife is the only thing that makes sense because if you assume man has divine origins, then that must be all of mankind from the beginning of time. All the people across time and geographies who had various spiritual practices. Yet you are asking us to assume this omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient god decided several thousand years after his creation only a small number of people in a tiny area of the med were suitable candidates to get into heaven, then he changed his mind a bit and added in the clause that that people would only get in if they added on believing his son was the messiah. Why did he allow all the rest of his creation to go off on tangents? Unless they weren’t tangents just different expressions of the same fundamental spiritual knowledge expressed locally - you might say is it an elephant or camel going through the eye of a needle. Was it Noah and the flood or the carpenters in the tale of Gilgamarsh who built the ark??

this brings me into the quote from Paul which I used purposefully. The Jews were Gods chosen people. Their law was that handed to them by God. Yet Paul decided (contrary to much of the very early Jesus cult practice ) that actually you didn’t have to be a Jew (ie one of Gods chosen people who presumably were the only ones who could be perfect and those rules don’t apply anymore. Potentially based on end of times predictions in the Old Testament, but most likely driven by a desire to up numbers and set up shop away from Jewish law. It goes to show that being perfect is arbitrary- the Jews move from being Gods chosen people adhering to Gods law to a bit of a free for all.

But then Paul’s eschatology was a bit crap and was certain Jesus was coming back in his life time (like so many) but prob indicates he had no more of a hotline to God than the rest of us.

Maybe we can all have our own road to Damascus moment? And decide between us a God what’s right. The difference being we prob should write over half of a book that leads to murder torture and misery

Show quote history

Sorry, I was quoting commentary on Matthew 11 and didn’t realise I hadn’t quoted the verse itself! Doh!!!

but re another potters comments about the churches view on women’s rights I’ll leave you with Paul (after all the majority of the NT is arguably him and therefore sola scriptura is effectively making you a follower of Paul) 1 Corinthians 14:33

33b As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

OMG12 · 20/04/2023 14:32

OMG12 · 20/04/2023 14:20

Sorry, I was quoting commentary on Matthew 11 and didn’t realise I hadn’t quoted the verse itself! Doh!!!

but re another potters comments about the churches view on women’s rights I’ll leave you with Paul (after all the majority of the NT is arguably him and therefore sola scriptura is effectively making you a follower of Paul) 1 Corinthians 14:33

33b As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Show quote history

Another of Paul’s not potters -although Harry spotter is essentially the same story so there you go

Hawkins003 · 20/04/2023 18:33

I guess the question is what's the appropriate song. My vote is highway to hell.

Original poster

Vincitveritas · 20/04/2023 18:41

I live to a higher standard so as I’m not a sinner-,no hell for me.

@Parker231 What sort of higher standard are we talking? Higher than what?

Imagine a herd of elephants at a watering hole- beautiful creatures- the idea that none of them are " perfect" is a nonsense. They are all perfect at being elephants, some may be stroppy, they have differences,some timid or have scars- but they are all perfect at being elephants.

Just as I am perfect at being homo sapien.

@speakout Comparing humans to elephants isn't a great analogy though. We aren't just another animal species. If you were ever in the position of having to choose between saving the life of a baby elephant or saving the life of a child, there'd be no contest.

If having sex before marriage is sinful, this heaven we are meant to be aspiring to is going to be very empty!

@Parker231 You're not understanding the key concepts here. Of course heaven would be empty if humans needed to be perfect! That's why Jesus had to die on the cross, to pay the penalty for our sin. When we admit our wrongdoing and sincerely ask God to forgive us, we can be "cleansed of all unrighteousness". This confession restores us to fellowship with God the Father.
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
1 John 1:8.

Perfection is an unhealthy thing to strive for in any case. Perfectionism is incredibly damaging to one's mental health.

@pointythings So we shouldn't strive for self improvement? I know there's things I can and do try to work on - a sharp tongue and a short fuse to start with. Those closest to me could certainly benefit if I managed to get on top of both of those!

Do you also think we shouldn't be able to criticise politicians?

@carbonarya Completely different kettle of fish.

@OMG12 You're answer takes a bit of work, will have to reply later. However,
I did want to ask what makes you use the label Christian? and where does your ceremonial magic fit into it all? I don't mean this disrespectfully, just genuinely interested.

Wow, heaven sounds very complicated. I wonder who thought of this!

@Blaueblumen Who do you think thought of this? I have a feeling you've got a theory!

OP posts:

Original poster

Vincitveritas · 20/04/2023 18:43

@Hawkins003 Appropriate song for a funeral you mean?

OP posts:

OMG12 · 20/04/2023 18:45

Blaueblumen · 20/04/2023 14:01

it exists outside of time and space - in another dimension, if you will. We travel there in spirit. There isn't really such a thing as a 'day' in Heaven, time works differently there.

Wow, heaven sounds very complicated. I wonder who thought of this!

It sounds b simple to me. It’s the physical universe that’s complicated

Hawkins003 · 20/04/2023 18:47

Vincitveritas · 20/04/2023 18:43

@Hawkins003 Appropriate song for a funeral you mean?

As there are different dimensions to the universe, I was thinking staying alive, but traversing the universe with that song