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Philosophy/religion

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Will you make it to Heaven?

829 replies

Vincitveritas · 12/03/2023 11:54

Take the quiz and see!

jesusplusnothing.com/the-heaven-test

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OMG12 · 17/04/2023 18:07

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 13:32

@OMG12 It's a difficult one. I'd most likely have been an Anglo Saxon or Norse Pagan. However, given the dire life expectancy, I probably wouldn't have made it past the age of five anyway!

To expand on my previous point (leaving the Jews aside for a moment) the Apostle Paul writes in Romans 2:12-16,

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

This suggests that the 'fate of the unlearned' will be judgement based on whether or not they listened to their consciences and their God given sense of right and wrong.

Willard Francis Mallalieu, a Methodist Bishop, wrote,

"Starting on the assumption that salvation was possible for every redeemed soul, and that all souls are redeemed, it has held fast to the fundamental doctrine that repentance towards God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ are the divinely-ordained conditions upon which all complying therewith may be saved, who are intelligent enough to be morally responsible, and have heard the glad tidings of salvation. At the same time Methodism has insisted that all children who are not willing transgressors, and all irresponsible persons, are saved by the grace of God manifest in the atoning work of Christ; and, further, that all in every nation, who fear God and work righteousness, are accepted of him, through the Christ that died for them, though they have not heard of him. This view of the atonement has been held and defended by Methodist theologians from the very first. And it may be said with ever-increasing emphasis that it commends itself to all sensible and unprejudiced thinkers, for this, that it is rational and Scriptural, and at the same time honorable to God and gracious and merciful to man."

On the other hand there's this:

nickcady.org/2019/02/15/did-people-go-to-heaven-before-jesus-death-resurrection/

However, these theories don't apply to most people today who have heard the gospel of Christ and are able to make a decision to either accept or reject Him.

Bit that only seems to refer to jewish people what about everyone else. What about “no one comes to my father except through me” (John 14:6).

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 19:31

@OMG12 No, Paul specifically says 'Gentiles' ie non Jews. John's verse still stands as they are covered by the blood of Jesus. But, as I've said, it's important to note that these are certain exceptions to the rule. The main verse we should be focusing on is:

"Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

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OMG12 · 17/04/2023 21:20

Parker231 · 17/04/2023 18:05

DT’s were taught to respect beliefs held by others - was important as they have friends from around the world but they know one person’s beliefs can be different from their own. Religion doesn’t play any part in their lives (now in their early 20’s) but just because you don’t have religious beliefs you can believe in other things- tooth fairy etc - probably no different from many children.

If you’re equating religious belief to belief in the tooth fairy I doubt your kids have really received the concept of respecting others from you.

OMG12 · 17/04/2023 21:26

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 19:31

@OMG12 No, Paul specifically says 'Gentiles' ie non Jews. John's verse still stands as they are covered by the blood of Jesus. But, as I've said, it's important to note that these are certain exceptions to the rule. The main verse we should be focusing on is:

"Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

But what about those who have never heard His name to be called upon?

Parker231 · 17/04/2023 21:28

OMG12 · 17/04/2023 21:20

If you’re equating religious belief to belief in the tooth fairy I doubt your kids have really received the concept of respecting others from you.

Nice person - not! I’ve not criticised anyone for their religious views but now you’re criticising how I’ve raised my DT’s. Sounds like you need to learn some tolerance of different opinions.

OMG12 · 17/04/2023 21:55

Parker231 · 17/04/2023 21:28

Nice person - not! I’ve not criticised anyone for their religious views but now you’re criticising how I’ve raised my DT’s. Sounds like you need to learn some tolerance of different opinions.

If you can’t see how disrespectful it is to equate the tooth fairy with peoples religious beliefs I really don’t know what to say.

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 22:37

Let's keep it civil people.

But what about those who have never heard His name to be called upon?

@OMG12 The last quote from Romans 10 applies to almost everyone today. The gospel has spread to almost every corner of the globe. Please go back to my other posts about people who haven't heard about Jesus or can't make a decision either way.

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OMG12 · 17/04/2023 22:52

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 22:37

Let's keep it civil people.

But what about those who have never heard His name to be called upon?

@OMG12 The last quote from Romans 10 applies to almost everyone today. The gospel has spread to almost every corner of the globe. Please go back to my other posts about people who haven't heard about Jesus or can't make a decision either way.

Thanks, I’ve read all the quotes, but they just don’t really stack up, are you saying any good person who hadn’t heard of Jesus goes to heaven but a good person who has heard of Jesus but doesn’t get to
go to heaven, or that non Christians who haven’t heard of Jesus get to choose on the day of judgement

Parker231 · 17/04/2023 23:05

OMG12 · 17/04/2023 21:55

If you can’t see how disrespectful it is to equate the tooth fairy with peoples religious beliefs I really don’t know what to say.

Why would I put religion on a pedestal when I don’t believe in god/heaven/hell? Nothing disrespectful in putting something which gave my DT’s pleasure before something which doesn’t matter to us.

Doesn’t hurt anyone else but makes my DT’s excited and happy.

OMG12 · 17/04/2023 23:16

Parker231 · 17/04/2023 23:05

Why would I put religion on a pedestal when I don’t believe in god/heaven/hell? Nothing disrespectful in putting something which gave my DT’s pleasure before something which doesn’t matter to us.

Doesn’t hurt anyone else but makes my DT’s excited and happy.

But, with all due respect you don’t need to put religion on a pedestal to realise that equating it with the tooth fairy is extremely derogatory to those who have deeply held religious views. You don’t need to share those views to be able to understand them. But saying it’s the same as the tooth fairy is not explaining the depth and often complexity of feeling that people of faith have. It’s just a wholly inappropriate comparison.

tbh there’s not a lot else to be said if you think this is an appropriate comparison

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 23:25

@OMG12 I don't wish to expand any more than I have done with this.

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OMG12 · 18/04/2023 07:35

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 23:25

@OMG12 I don't wish to expand any more than I have done with this.

But why? Surely that’s the point of the thread to see who will make it into heaven? I’m trying to understand where non-Christian’s who never had the chance or had culture working against them, fit into heaven? So for example if I lived under the Taliban where it’s significantly more difficult to be a Christian than living in Exeter say, is that taken into account? Also is it all Christian’s? If so, what’s the point in the various denominations. Because historically that has been fairly strongly argued against.

pointythings · 18/04/2023 09:08

@OMG12 those are excellent questions which really do demand an answer.

bossonext · 18/04/2023 10:09

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 23:25

@OMG12 I don't wish to expand any more than I have done with this.

No, you only want people to talk about how wonderful your religion is. Not to ask difficult questions.

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 11:32

@OMG12 I've already addressed your first two questions. It's important to not get carried away about the what if's, particularly if it might lead some to a misunderstanding. As for the various denominations, it's usually to do with differences in preference surrounding leadership, doctrine, interpretation of Scripture, worship styles etc. That doesn't necessarily mean they can't be in harmony with each other.

those are excellent questions which really do demand an answer.

@pointythings Anybody who 'demands' an answer will not be getting one, believe me.

you only want people to talk about how wonderful your religion is

@bossonext What gave you that impression?

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bossonext · 18/04/2023 11:54

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 11:32

@OMG12 I've already addressed your first two questions. It's important to not get carried away about the what if's, particularly if it might lead some to a misunderstanding. As for the various denominations, it's usually to do with differences in preference surrounding leadership, doctrine, interpretation of Scripture, worship styles etc. That doesn't necessarily mean they can't be in harmony with each other.

those are excellent questions which really do demand an answer.

@pointythings Anybody who 'demands' an answer will not be getting one, believe me.

you only want people to talk about how wonderful your religion is

@bossonext What gave you that impression?

What gave you that impression?

The part where you said I don't wish to expand any more than I have done with this. Post bible quotes and internet quizes yes, answer actual questions no.

pointythings · 18/04/2023 12:01

@Vincitveritas it isn't me demanding an answer, it's the actual questions themselves. They go to the absolute heart of the issue of who gets to (your version of) Heaven.

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 12:01

@bossonext Have you actually read anything I've posted? (Skim reading doesn't count!).

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Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 12:10

@pointythings I had hoped I'd made that clear. This article lays it all out in a succinct manner:

www.gotquestions.org/who-will-go-to-heaven.html

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bossonext · 18/04/2023 12:13

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 12:01

@bossonext Have you actually read anything I've posted? (Skim reading doesn't count!).

Yes

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 12:34

@bossonext You're getting one of theseHmm #sorry, not sorry.

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bossonext · 18/04/2023 12:36

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 12:34

@bossonext You're getting one of theseHmm #sorry, not sorry.

Okay then. 😂

pointythings · 18/04/2023 14:56

@Vincitveritas well, it does and it doesn't. That article doesn't answer the question of whether people who don't actually know about God and Jesus can get to Heaven. It doesn't answer the question of whether people who subscribe to other faiths (Hinduism, paganism, others) can get to Heaven. It's pretty clear on us atheists though, so thanks for that. But if the ultimate punishment is eternal separation from god and we atheists already live that in life, as a punishmen that's no big deal.

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 17:28

pointythings · 18/04/2023 14:56

@Vincitveritas well, it does and it doesn't. That article doesn't answer the question of whether people who don't actually know about God and Jesus can get to Heaven. It doesn't answer the question of whether people who subscribe to other faiths (Hinduism, paganism, others) can get to Heaven. It's pretty clear on us atheists though, so thanks for that. But if the ultimate punishment is eternal separation from god and we atheists already live that in life, as a punishmen that's no big deal.

@pointythings

That article doesn't answer the question of whether people who don't actually know about God and Jesus can get to Heaven

Like I said, that's a possibility - I believe for babies and young children almost certainly. This mercy may extend to people who haven't heard about God/Jesus. As Saint Paul seems to suggest, they will be judged on whether they followed God's will within their conscience.

It doesn't answer the question of whether people who subscribe to other faiths (Hinduism, paganism, others) can get to Heaven.

I would say the Bible is clear on this - those who worship other 'gods' will not be permitted to enter Heaven.

But if the ultimate punishment is eternal separation from god and we atheists already live that in life, as a punishmen that's no big deal.

It's a huge deal. God is the very source of life, love, peace, joy, light and healing. Without God, there is nothing. Again, I really don't want to focus on the 'other place' but it is about as horrific as you can imagine and then some.

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Parker231 · 18/04/2023 17:35

Vincitveritas · 18/04/2023 17:28

@pointythings

That article doesn't answer the question of whether people who don't actually know about God and Jesus can get to Heaven

Like I said, that's a possibility - I believe for babies and young children almost certainly. This mercy may extend to people who haven't heard about God/Jesus. As Saint Paul seems to suggest, they will be judged on whether they followed God's will within their conscience.

It doesn't answer the question of whether people who subscribe to other faiths (Hinduism, paganism, others) can get to Heaven.

I would say the Bible is clear on this - those who worship other 'gods' will not be permitted to enter Heaven.

But if the ultimate punishment is eternal separation from god and we atheists already live that in life, as a punishmen that's no big deal.

It's a huge deal. God is the very source of life, love, peace, joy, light and healing. Without God, there is nothing. Again, I really don't want to focus on the 'other place' but it is about as horrific as you can imagine and then some.

How can it be a punishment if I don’t believe in God - can’t be hurt by something which doesn’t exist. It’s no big deal.

My life is pretty good without any God in it.