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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Will you make it to Heaven?

829 replies

Vincitveritas · 12/03/2023 11:54

Take the quiz and see!

jesusplusnothing.com/the-heaven-test

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OMG12 · 13/04/2023 08:08

Vincitveritas · 12/04/2023 23:55

@OMG12 You're welcome 😊

@PollyThePixie Thanks for stopping by!

@Feuillemille23 Haven't heard of Hungy Hearts, it all sounds a bit disingenuous to me.
I'm sure there are also quite a few Christians in the Labour Party, Lib Dems, Greens etc etc. and a lot of us know how to have fun too. 😉

@StopStartStop Thank you. I am interested though in how you make sense of the following Bible verses in relation to your experience?

Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

John 14:6, "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Acts 4:12, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

John 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people."

1 John 5:12, "Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Re the passages you quote re @StopStartStop, I guess the question to ask is how do you make sense of those bible passages given @StopStartStop experience? If god was the creator they would have been there since the Dawn of time, of the only was to God is through Jesus then what about all the people who existed before Christianity? What about those who died never having heard of Christ? Christianity is just another cult that got big because of historical accident. Largely starting with the conquests of Alexander the Great creating the Hellenistic world the followed by the Roman Empire and eventually the various Empires of Europe.

The rest of those biblical quotes, taken at face value are sales pitches of cults and cult leaders.

But then, as you know I have a more esoteric view of the Bible (which by definition is a very narrow gateway). Maybe all paths lead to the same destination

StopStartStop · 13/04/2023 08:32

I read this years ago...

                                                     Roads

I enjoy looking at other people’s roads.They are different from mineand yet basically the same. The fact that I love my own roadWith it’s comfortable landmarksand familiar faces,doesn’t restrict my appreciationof someone else’s neighbourhood. And if I go into another areaand walk a mile or two with someone else,I return as a larger being.The love of my own road is deepened,the appreciation of other roads is widenedand I am blessed in the knowledgethat all roads lead to God.
a Maori Psalm

StopStartStop · 13/04/2023 08:33

pfft. That was set out in verses as in the original. Still, the message is the same.

OMG12 · 14/04/2023 15:46

StopStartStop · 13/04/2023 08:32

I read this years ago...

                                                     Roads

I enjoy looking at other people’s roads.They are different from mineand yet basically the same. The fact that I love my own roadWith it’s comfortable landmarksand familiar faces,doesn’t restrict my appreciationof someone else’s neighbourhood. And if I go into another areaand walk a mile or two with someone else,I return as a larger being.The love of my own road is deepened,the appreciation of other roads is widenedand I am blessed in the knowledgethat all roads lead to God.
a Maori Psalm

I love that.

BeverlyHa · 16/04/2023 12:53

Hi Babies, I hope you did not turn this place into a vile chat against each other and whose religion is the best. Happy Orthodox Easter to you all. Stay in Christ and we all will be in Heaven. Do otherwise and I do not hold any information where you are going to end up. STAY WISE.

Vincitveritas · 16/04/2023 14:45

@StopStartStop & @OMG12 Ok, so if all roads lead to Rome as it were, what happens to the likes of Hitler? I'm guessing there isn't much point in writing out many of the other Bible verses which explicitly state that only those who put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ and repent of their sins will enter Heaven, as you believe these to be man made conditions? Same with the ones pertaining to a very real and everlasting Hell.

In terms of people who died before Jesus came to earth, I believe they were saved by faith just as we are today. The nation of Israel were given the Mosaic Law and other nations had God's Law written within their innate conscience. Jesus, like God the Father, has always existed and His death paid the penalty for everyone - past, present and future. We can't know for sure, but one theory is that the Old Testament prophets such as Adam and Moses and all those with faith in God entered into a place called the 'Bosom of Abraham' prior to the crucifixion. After Jesus' sacrifice the way to Heaven was finally opened and after possibly! ministering to the souls within Hell (or Gehenna) Jesus rescued some and took them, along with the faithful souls, into Heaven.

Ultimately, if all people of any or no faith eventually reach Heaven, just what was the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice of the cross?

@BeverlyHa Happy Easter!
I don't think there's anything vile about this chat, I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.

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StopStartStop · 16/04/2023 14:53

what happens to the likes of Hitler?
That's the point of the NDE. Everyone. Even those we think shouldn't be there. Guru Nanak, I think, had an experience in the presence of God, where he learned that 'there is neither Hindu or Muslim'. Similar idea. Earthly divisions are not of God.

Vincitveritas · 16/04/2023 14:58

@StopStartStop So, who do you believe Jesus to be?

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Vincitveritas · 16/04/2023 15:02

@StopStartStop I've heard many testemonies of people who have entered into Heaven and Hell - sometimes both. A few have said they were initially decieved and what they thought was Heaven turned out to be the complete opposite. Were they all just tripping?

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Vincitveritas · 16/04/2023 15:02

Arrhgg autocorrect!

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StopStartStop · 16/04/2023 15:04

There's a special messenger to bring us back to God every five hundred years or so.

Tripping has nothing to do with it.

Hell - hmm. Ian McCormack described it. I haven't seen it - yet!

Vincitveritas · 16/04/2023 15:09

StopStartStop · 16/04/2023 15:04

There's a special messenger to bring us back to God every five hundred years or so.

Tripping has nothing to do with it.

Hell - hmm. Ian McCormack described it. I haven't seen it - yet!

Who said this happens every 500 years? So Jesus is just one in a long line of messengers that brings people to salvation?

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Ponderingwindow · 16/04/2023 15:10

I got an 85-99% chance of making it to heaven. They aren’t doing a great job of keeping out the strident atheists. I got dinged for not putting a god first.

Vincitveritas · 16/04/2023 15:17

@Ponderingwindow Thank you for joining us, please read on.😊

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OMG12 · 16/04/2023 16:59

Vincitveritas · 16/04/2023 14:45

@StopStartStop & @OMG12 Ok, so if all roads lead to Rome as it were, what happens to the likes of Hitler? I'm guessing there isn't much point in writing out many of the other Bible verses which explicitly state that only those who put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ and repent of their sins will enter Heaven, as you believe these to be man made conditions? Same with the ones pertaining to a very real and everlasting Hell.

In terms of people who died before Jesus came to earth, I believe they were saved by faith just as we are today. The nation of Israel were given the Mosaic Law and other nations had God's Law written within their innate conscience. Jesus, like God the Father, has always existed and His death paid the penalty for everyone - past, present and future. We can't know for sure, but one theory is that the Old Testament prophets such as Adam and Moses and all those with faith in God entered into a place called the 'Bosom of Abraham' prior to the crucifixion. After Jesus' sacrifice the way to Heaven was finally opened and after possibly! ministering to the souls within Hell (or Gehenna) Jesus rescued some and took them, along with the faithful souls, into Heaven.

Ultimately, if all people of any or no faith eventually reach Heaven, just what was the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice of the cross?

@BeverlyHa Happy Easter!
I don't think there's anything vile about this chat, I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.

See Hitler is probably in the afterlife the same as everyone else. I don’t really believe in heaven and hell in a Christian manner, I think our essence is reabsorbed into the All, whether our essence is good or bad until we emanate out of it again
until we are perfected to remain there.

so what about the billions of people who have lived and died without any concept of Christianity. Was it just a few people who lived in the few hundred in a small area of the med that got to go to heaven? What if you’d been born at that time in England? Devout and good? Would you have gone to heaven?

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 13:32

@OMG12 It's a difficult one. I'd most likely have been an Anglo Saxon or Norse Pagan. However, given the dire life expectancy, I probably wouldn't have made it past the age of five anyway!

To expand on my previous point (leaving the Jews aside for a moment) the Apostle Paul writes in Romans 2:12-16,

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

This suggests that the 'fate of the unlearned' will be judgement based on whether or not they listened to their consciences and their God given sense of right and wrong.

Willard Francis Mallalieu, a Methodist Bishop, wrote,

"Starting on the assumption that salvation was possible for every redeemed soul, and that all souls are redeemed, it has held fast to the fundamental doctrine that repentance towards God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ are the divinely-ordained conditions upon which all complying therewith may be saved, who are intelligent enough to be morally responsible, and have heard the glad tidings of salvation. At the same time Methodism has insisted that all children who are not willing transgressors, and all irresponsible persons, are saved by the grace of God manifest in the atoning work of Christ; and, further, that all in every nation, who fear God and work righteousness, are accepted of him, through the Christ that died for them, though they have not heard of him. This view of the atonement has been held and defended by Methodist theologians from the very first. And it may be said with ever-increasing emphasis that it commends itself to all sensible and unprejudiced thinkers, for this, that it is rational and Scriptural, and at the same time honorable to God and gracious and merciful to man."

On the other hand there's this:

nickcady.org/2019/02/15/did-people-go-to-heaven-before-jesus-death-resurrection/

However, these theories don't apply to most people today who have heard the gospel of Christ and are able to make a decision to either accept or reject Him.

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Parker231 · 17/04/2023 13:58

Am quite happy with my approach to life - there is no god, heaven or hell. Just enjoy your life your way.

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 15:17

@Parker231 You've just reminded me that one of the UK's most popular funeral song is 'My Way' by Frank Sinatra.
Not personally believing in those things doesn't make them disappear.

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Parker231 · 17/04/2023 15:22

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 15:17

@Parker231 You've just reminded me that one of the UK's most popular funeral song is 'My Way' by Frank Sinatra.
Not personally believing in those things doesn't make them disappear.

Believing in them doesn’t make them true either.

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 16:20

@Parker231 Well no, otherwise we wouldn't be able to move for all the elves, fairies, unicorns, mermaids, dragons and the like.😁

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Parker231 · 17/04/2023 16:28

When DT’s were little we told them that some people believed in a god whereas we believed in the tooth fairy and Sinterklass.

They went to an international school so lots of exposure to different cultures and religions. We let them make up their own minds. Neither now believe in any religious authority.

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 16:52

@Parker231 It sounds as though you're calling me small minded in a roundabout way and equating belief in God with a belief in Santa and the tooth fairy.

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Parker231 · 17/04/2023 17:34

Vincitveritas · 17/04/2023 16:52

@Parker231 It sounds as though you're calling me small minded in a roundabout way and equating belief in God with a belief in Santa and the tooth fairy.

Just demonstrating different beliefs for different people.

OMG12 · 17/04/2023 17:57

Parker231 · 17/04/2023 16:28

When DT’s were little we told them that some people believed in a god whereas we believed in the tooth fairy and Sinterklass.

They went to an international school so lots of exposure to different cultures and religions. We let them make up their own minds. Neither now believe in any religious authority.

It’s not really a great way to encourage respect for others equating a belief in Santa and the tooth fairy to peoples faiths though is it. You cannot genuinely believe they’re the same thing,

Parker231 · 17/04/2023 18:05

OMG12 · 17/04/2023 17:57

It’s not really a great way to encourage respect for others equating a belief in Santa and the tooth fairy to peoples faiths though is it. You cannot genuinely believe they’re the same thing,

DT’s were taught to respect beliefs held by others - was important as they have friends from around the world but they know one person’s beliefs can be different from their own. Religion doesn’t play any part in their lives (now in their early 20’s) but just because you don’t have religious beliefs you can believe in other things- tooth fairy etc - probably no different from many children.