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Original poster

Will you make it to Heaven?

829 replies

Vincitveritas · 12/03/2023 11:54

Take the quiz and see!

jesusplusnothing.com/the-heaven-test

OP posts:
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24
Original poster
Vincitveritas · 20/03/2023 22:04

@pointythings Well I'm disappointed you're disappointed in me. I've a soft spot for the Dutch.

I had a Jehovah's witness in my house a few weeks ago. I invited him in because it was cold

You must be a better person than me, I usually leave them on the doorstep and hide. 😬

OP posts:
Original poster
Vincitveritas · 20/03/2023 22:08

@TwilightSilhouette Thank you for your thoughts. I agree with the majority of what you've said, except the part about choosing whether or not to go to Heaven. Could you expand on this if you're comfortable? Do you believe in annihilationism?

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pointythings · 20/03/2023 22:10

@Vincitveritas I don't know about better, I am jobhunting at the moment and it's taking its time, so I decided I was in the mood for some challenging debate on religion. I like the Mormons too, they're always so very, very young.

This man actually got where I was coming from and that I wasn't going to be a suitable recruit. It was quite refreshing, and he was the one who decided to go - no prompting from me at all.

Hawkins003 · 20/03/2023 22:24

@Vincitveritas
Spending time with family, e.g. Bbqs, tourist activities, e.g. Sking, biking, hiking, ect to a lot of people more productive than standing in church

Hawkins003 · 20/03/2023 22:24

pointythings · 20/03/2023 21:46

@Hawkins003 that was clearly the point OP was trying to make. We all know that. My objection is that the point was made using cherrypicked and misrepresented data, not to mention conflating correlation and causation. That's not good enough.

That's understandable

Hawkins003 · 20/03/2023 22:27

@Vincitveritas
So we need to ask for forgiveness from a Being who's so important that somehow he needs our devotion , seems like the being had a God complex,

Hawkins003 · 20/03/2023 22:27

Based on your response to Parker

Hawkins003 · 20/03/2023 22:29

pointythings · 20/03/2023 21:55

@Vincitveritas this isn't about a bone, this is about being honest in debate. If you had said from the outset 'I feel that the world is heading towards a dark place and it is my theory that...' we would all have let it go. But you presented it as fact and manipulated the information you presented. That makes it very hard to trust a thing you say.

I had a Jehovah's witness in my house a few weeks ago. I invited him in because it was cold and we had a good, honest conversation in which he presented his beliefs, I presented mine in an atmosphere of mutual respect. He didn't do any of the things you have recently done on this thread. I'm actually really disappointed in you.

A very kind thing you did

Original poster
Vincitveritas · 20/03/2023 23:13

pointythings · 20/03/2023 22:10

@Vincitveritas I don't know about better, I am jobhunting at the moment and it's taking its time, so I decided I was in the mood for some challenging debate on religion. I like the Mormons too, they're always so very, very young.

This man actually got where I was coming from and that I wasn't going to be a suitable recruit. It was quite refreshing, and he was the one who decided to go - no prompting from me at all.

Very good, well I hope you've had a good time, you always put up a good fight. 😊

I haven't come across any Mormons IRL - they seem sweet though.

Glad to hear the young man had the good sense to leave unprompted, I've heard it can be quite a challenge sometimes.

Good luck in your job search.

Spending time with family, e.g. Bbqs, tourist activities, e.g. Sking, biking, hiking, ect to a lot of people more productive than standing in church

@Hawkins003 I manage to spend a lot of time with family despite going to church. The services usually only last an hour/hour and a half max and you can go morning or evening to fit around life. They're also great places to meet people, find support, attend fun events and learn new things.

OP posts:
Original poster
Vincitveritas · 20/03/2023 23:15

Time for bed 🤦‍♀️ Just realised how many times I used the word 'good'!

OP posts:
Hawkins003 · 20/03/2023 23:23

@Vincitveritas I can understand your perspectives about church and although I don't believe I have been to a coffee morning at church and it was very nice company.
I was using those as some reasons others may not prefer church.

All the best with zzzzzz

Original poster
Vincitveritas · 20/03/2023 23:27

Thank you 💛Very happy to hear you went along for a looksee - we might make a Christian out of you yet! Forgot to add, the services are only once a week and while there might be house groups/Bible studies/coffee mornings/volunteering, it's not compulsory.

OP posts:
Hawkins003 · 20/03/2023 23:44

Vincitveritas · 20/03/2023 23:27

Thank you 💛Very happy to hear you went along for a looksee - we might make a Christian out of you yet! Forgot to add, the services are only once a week and while there might be house groups/Bible studies/coffee mornings/volunteering, it's not compulsory.

Not promising, but I'm open minded

Parker231 · 21/03/2023 03:02

@Vincitveritas

We all make mistakes, there's still time to find God in your heart and ask for forgiveness.

I’m quite happy with the way I live my life so nothing to ask forgiveness for. The 10 commandments aren’t relevant to my life

OMG12 · 21/03/2023 07:48

Hawkins003 · 20/03/2023 17:24

Basically we could use a new imperial truth type ideology that would be defined by the core values of reason and respect for the methodology of science and human progress that could be used to replace the traditions of religion, superstition and faith.

Source Warhammer 40k philosophy.

Show quote history

You see I don’t think that would quite cut it. Despite me quoting Durkheim I don’t think Empiricism is great when it comes to human behaviour. Scientific methodology might have a limited benefit in the observation of key characteristics but I think we are so much more than current scientific methodology would ever be able to comprehend, humans, in their divine state have an ineffable quality. The Divine nature of humanity is the thorn in the side of both science and religion.

Every philosophy which replaces another will suffer from its own failings (even if it gets off to a promising start) and that is due to the weaknesses of man and any religion he creates or philosophy he muses upon.

OMG12 · 21/03/2023 08:15

Vincitveritas · 20/03/2023 17:54

Of course the big sacrifice on Gods say so was God setting up a system whereby his son had to be sacrificed as part of his game. In fact the whole of Christianity is based on the concept of Child sacrifice for gods plan being the ultimate show of love.

But I find it difficult when Christian’s demonise suicide, after all Jesus effectively suffered suicide by cop.

@OMG12 I'm not demonising it at all, every case is a total tragedy.
Jesus did not commit suicide. He gave up His life for mankind in much the same way as if someone were to stand in your place on the gallows after you've been given a death sentence, even though they were completely innocent of the crime.

'There is no doubt that Christians affirm the central claim that Jesus is a sacrifice for the sins of humanity. In the New Testament, Jesus seen as a Passover sacrifice (e.g, Jn. 19:14;1 Cor. 5:7-8); an unblemished sacrifice (1 Pet.1:19; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 7: 26-28; 9:14; 1 Pet. 2:21-25); a sin offering (Rom 8:3; 2 Cor. 5:21) and a covenant sacrifice (e.g., Mk. 14:24; 1 Cor. 11:25). As Eph. 5: 2 (a proof text) says, “And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.”

...In the New Testament, the ancient sacrifices all bleed into one: Jesus is the lamb of God, associated with the paschal offering, which becomes a sin offering. And once Jesus becomes the prime sacrifice, no other offerings were needed. At the beginning of this chapter, we cited Romans 3:25, where Paul speaks of the Christ as “put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith.” The Greek term the NRSV translates as “sacrifice of atonement” is hilastērion. Paul is referring to Leviticus 16:13–15:

Leviticus 16:30: “For on this day atonement shall be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins you shall be clean before the LORD.”

Several subsequent verses in Leviticus clarify the atoning nature of the blood:

Leviticus 16:33: “He shall make atonement for the sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and all the people of the assembly.”

As these verses testify, atonement according to Leviticus is not accomplished through prayer, contrition, and fasting but through precisely following rituals of blood manipulation.

But with this issue comes some questions:

The Bible makes it quite clear that God hates human sacrifice. Thus, God forbids (human) vicarious atonement (e.g., Exod 32:31-33; Num 35:33; Deut 24:16; II Kgs 14:6; Jer 31:29 [30 in Christian Bibles]; Ezek 18:4,20; Ps 49:7). And God prohibits human sacrifices (e.g., Lev 18:21, 24-25; Deut 18:10; Jer 7:31, 19:5; Ezek 23:37,39). Thus, human sacrifice is associated in the Old Testament with evil practices such as sorcery and divination, which are also detestable to God.

So, if God hates human sacrifice, why did He sacrifice Jesus?

In response, God didn’t sacrifice Jesus. Rather, Jesus gave up his own life. No one forced Him. He laid down His life willingly, as He made clear speaking about His life: “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again” (John 10:18).

Also, Jesus wasn’t just a human. We don’t believe that one human life could possibly cover the sins of the multitudes who ever existed. The only viable sacrifice must be an infinite one, which means only God Himself could atone for the sins of mankind.'
(CJF Ministries)

You see there’s really two choices over the crucifixion God sacrificed his own son or Jesus committed suicide.

the synoptic gospels are clear about the conversation Jesus had in the garden of Gethsemane. He begged his father for any other way but said if there is no other way then he would submit to Gods will. god remained pretty silent on it,

suicide is often a result of people thinking they have no other option, it’s for a greater good (eg ridding others of a burden). I would argue this is exactly the thought process here. The survival mechanism has been overridden.

if we say God sacrificed his son ( and my understanding is that is what the majority of Christianity believes) then we have to ask why an omnipotent God, the guy who literally set the rules of the game, decided to set the rules that way. He good literally have said, do a tap dance and humanity will be saved. His game his rules. But instead he decided to have his son tortured and killed in the most painful manner. Why? Why were these the rules?

Whether or not God said that would be the end of human sacrifice is irrelevant-we are looking at the ways Christians have behaved ever since, for the vast vast majority of the period Christianity has been practiced human sacrifices have continued at an unrivalled pace in the name of God. There’s been fluctuating positions regarding suicide but, irrespective of your personal stance mainstream Christianity has for much of its existence villified it.

OMG12 · 21/03/2023 08:42

Vincitveritas · 20/03/2023 21:51

As God doesn’t exist and I’ve broken most of the 10 commandments, hell for me then!!

@Parker231 We all make mistakes, there's still time to find God in your heart and ask for forgiveness.

Rather, Jesus gave up his own life

Which is what suicides and those who choose voluntary euthanasia do.

@Elphame First of all, Jesus didn't kill Himself, the Romans nailed Him to a cross. Secondly, self sacrifice is completely different to suicide/assisted dying.

@pointythings If it makes you happy, I will admit, in the absence of any strong proof, it remains at present a theory. I nevertheless stand by it. You can drop the bone now.

@Hawkins003 I'm not sure what you mean by "doing different activities ect these days is more important than being at church".

As panic at the Disco say - the only difference between martyrdom and suicide is press coverage.

Do you also consider say Islamic suicide bombers as martyrs because that is how Daesh see them? It’s a matter of perspective.

Jesus could easily have escaped the Romans (even if was just a man) if you believe the course of events in the Bible.

if it was all Gods plan, really Judas is the hero here. He facilitated Gods plan. Yet he definitely committed suicide (or was Judas a martyr - the church don’t seem to agree he was, yet without him gods will wouldn’t have been enacted, or was Judas collateral damage?)

Original poster
Vincitveritas · 21/03/2023 23:11

humans, in their divine state have an ineffable quality. The Divine nature of humanity is the thorn in the side of both science and religion.

@OMG12 Are you saying that you think humans are divine beings? You've quoted Luke 17:21, "The Kingdom of God is within you" before, is this why?

Why? Why were these the rules?
A good question, to which I have no answers. What I do have is faith that all will be revealed eventually.

...for the vast vast majority of the period Christianity has been practiced human sacrifices have continued at an unrivalled pace in the name of God.

Do you also consider say Islamic suicide bombers as martyrs

Call me simple minded, but all I see here is plain old murder.

Jesus could easily have escaped the Romans (even if he was just a man)

That's what the Roman soldiers and others taunted Jesus with:

"Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him." Matthew 27:39-44.

Yes, Jesus could have easily escaped from the cross, that's the whole point - not as a mere man though.

...was Judas collateral damage?

The Bible says Judas was "seized with remorse" for what he had done and hanged himself out of overwhelming guilt. Judas utilised his free will and chose to betray Jesus. He could have sought forgiveness for his actions but instead also made a choice to take his own life. I've no doubt the religious leaders at the time would have found another way without Judas' input.

OP posts:
Original poster
Vincitveritas · 21/03/2023 23:13

@Parker231, @Hawkins003 & @speakout

www.crosswalk.com/church/worship/is-god-an-egomaniac-for-asking-us-to-worship-and-praise-him.html

OP posts:
Parker231 · 22/03/2023 07:14

Don’t understand the relevance of the link - I’m not in a million years going to start praising Jesus

pointythings · 22/03/2023 09:45

That link doesn't answer the question. It just basically says 'subscribe to the collective delusion' (or put more kindly 'take the leap of faith') and you will really enjoy yourself.

I mean, that excerpt from C.S. Lewis makes me think of God as an addictive substance. Not a healthy thing.

OMG12 · 22/03/2023 09:51

Vincitveritas · 21/03/2023 23:11

humans, in their divine state have an ineffable quality. The Divine nature of humanity is the thorn in the side of both science and religion.

@OMG12 Are you saying that you think humans are divine beings? You've quoted Luke 17:21, "The Kingdom of God is within you" before, is this why?

Why? Why were these the rules?
A good question, to which I have no answers. What I do have is faith that all will be revealed eventually.

...for the vast vast majority of the period Christianity has been practiced human sacrifices have continued at an unrivalled pace in the name of God.

Do you also consider say Islamic suicide bombers as martyrs

Call me simple minded, but all I see here is plain old murder.

Jesus could easily have escaped the Romans (even if he was just a man)

That's what the Roman soldiers and others taunted Jesus with:

"Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him." Matthew 27:39-44.

Yes, Jesus could have easily escaped from the cross, that's the whole point - not as a mere man though.

...was Judas collateral damage?

The Bible says Judas was "seized with remorse" for what he had done and hanged himself out of overwhelming guilt. Judas utilised his free will and chose to betray Jesus. He could have sought forgiveness for his actions but instead also made a choice to take his own life. I've no doubt the religious leaders at the time would have found another way without Judas' input.

humans, in their divine state have an ineffable quality. The Divine nature of humanity is the thorn in the side of both science and religion.
@OMG12 Are you saying that you think humans are divine beings? You've quoted Luke 17:21, "The Kingdom of God is within you" before, is this why?

Well the main source for this would be Genesis - the Elohim created man and woman in their image.

The Gnostic creation story states everyone has a divine spark in them to be discovered and natures and ultimately unified with God

Neoplatonic emanationism shows everything is part of the divine.

each Sephora (emanation. Of God) on the Kabbalistic tree of life contains another tree we are both elations of the divine and divine in ourselves, although the ultimate purpose is to be reunified with the Divine which we can only do by realising our own divinity.

Many traditions have similar concepts.

then we come onto the Fall, where man was separated from God. Now you can look at the ejection from the Garden of Eden in many ways. I personally view it as emanating in from the divine in order to experience all aspects of creation which is impossible within the walls of Eden (this is akin to God creating the physical in order to experience itself). The sin of eating the forbidden fruit was necessary in order to complete the whole cycle of life (see also Persephone and the forbidden pomegranate in Greek Mythology, stealing golden apples as one of the labours of Hercules etc etc, the apple falling on Newtons head etc). The purpose of life is to heal this division (see the transformation and healing analogy in Christian miracle tradition). Man is capable of the transformation (water into wine) and healing of (spiritual wounds) he can get up off his mat and walk his path, he can remove the hoodwink and cure his blindness and see. He can sacrifice himself and be reborn in his true spiritual reality. Because he is divine all along - it is the journey of the fool in tarot.

the above analogy makes sense of the why to me.
ill get back to you on the rest later

OMG12 · 22/03/2023 17:47

Regarding the term the Kingdom of God is within you/in the midst of you, this is the same as “on Earth as it is in heaven”

Or in line with as above so below in hermeticism

Per Sir Issac Newtons translation of the Emerald Tablet

Tis true without error, certain & most true.
That which is below is like that which is above & that which is above is like that which is below to do the miracles of one only thing
And as all things have been & arose from one by the mediation of one: so all things have their birth from this one thing by adaptation.
The Sun is its father, the moon its mother, the wind hath carried it in its belly, the earth is its nurse.
The father of all perfection in the whole world is here.
Its force or power is entire if it be converted into earth.
Separate thou the earth from the fire, the subtle from the gross sweetly with great industry.
It ascends from the earth to the heaven & again it descends to the earth & receives the force of things superior & inferior.
By this means you shall have the glory of the whole world
& thereby all obscurity shall fly from you.
Its force is above all force. For it vanquishes every subtle thing & penetrates every solid thing.
So was the world created.
From this are & do come admirable adaptations whereof the means (or process) is here in this. Hence I am called Hermes Trismegist, having the three parts of the philosophy of the whole world
That which I have said of the operation of the Sun is accomplished & ended.

In the Gospel of Thomas (non- canon) it states

LAYTON

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you (plur.) say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in heaven,' then the birds of heaven will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. But the kingdom is inside of you. And it is outside of you. "When you become acquainted with yourselves, then you will be recognized. And you will understand that it is you who are children of the living father. But if you do not become acquainted with yourselves, then you are in poverty, and it is you who are the poverty."

everything in the heavens is reflected here on earth and vice versa, everything within us is reflected outside of us and vice versa.

interestingly this fits in with some theories regarding the origin and nature of our universe eg holographic duality, the theory out universe is in a black hole of another universe.

OMG12 · 22/03/2023 17:57

Jesus, could have escaped from the cross-that’s the point. So he sacrificed himself to his God?/committed suicide. He ignored the survival instinct. So why didn’t he? If you look at the story in the Garden of Gethsemane, it’s because he thought that’s what God wanted.

Suicide bombers kill themselves, are they martyrs or did they take their own life?

Re Judas, the whole crucifixion is predetermined, that therefore assumes Judas’s role in it is predetermined - he was a victim of the crucifixion yet being used in that way caused him to take his own life.

Hawkins003 · 22/03/2023 18:03

Vincitveritas · 21/03/2023 23:13

God does have an ego unless their are chaos gods that god is trying to prevent us from worshipping

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