Will you make it to Heaven?

[Vincitveritas]

Take the quiz and see!

jesusplusnothing.com/the-heaven-test

This article is a really interesting analysis of the history of suicide. It’s not always been universally condemned by even mainstream Christianity. It certainly wasn’t condemned by many of what we now refer to as gnostics.

a very interesting part of the article states;

“Emile Durkheim, in his book Le Suicide [6], made an exhaustive survey of the various causes of suicide then known to exist and reached an important conclusion: that social causes are of predominant importance in determining suicide and that the strength of suicidal tendency within societies is in direct proportion to its degree of social cohesion. Where social solidarity is strong suicide will be an uncommon event; thus, the common finding that religious adherence is associated with low suicide rates, a finding which still holds true today. Conversely, where social cohesion breaks down, as in times of economic stress, suicide rates rise, a view which holds interest for those concerned about rising unemployment, the breakdown of the family unit, the decline of religion and the collapse of community structures.”

I agree that the decline of religion is possibly linked to suicide rates, but only as related to the the breakdown as an almost universal philosophy of society. Although Nietzsche probably accurately stated God is dead and we have killed him” in the 19th century he also said we would see the shadow of god in caves for many years.

Over recent years we have seen the increasing division of society, a breakdown in unifying bodies. Media has created and ever wider gulf between us and them, social media algorithms are set to highlight this division and perpetuate it (by ensuring continued engagement therefore increased revenue).

if God is dead we need to find a replacement unifying near universal philosophy to replace it - at the moment there’s a lot of jostling to find this replacement philosophy, holy wars are playing out on social media rather than on the battlefield. Zealots and shouts of heresy, exterminating those who disagree, increasing numbers in your tribe- time old tactics - rolled out again in this new epoch.

but at the moment we are left with uncertainty, there’s no rules that act as a social glue. I think this uncertainty can affect mental wellness esp when viewed against a background that some of the rules which have been set having been adequately test for balance.

But I find it difficult when Christian’s demonise suicide, after all Jesus effectively suffered suicide by cop.

Sorry for the disjointed nature of my posting. I should have started the thread with more free time available!

...current right wing government make poverty worse for so many people?
Republican politicians voting against the provision of free school meals for children whose parents can't afford them.

@pointythings
Yes, located in the UK. I don't want to make this into a political debate. I see here politicians doing what politicians do best and I don't have a lot of faith in any of them, whichever way they may lean. If any of them were taking the teachings of Jesus into account then they should definitely be voting for the provision of free school meals rather than against them!

@watmel I concede; on reflection poverty was probably a bad example!

@ShodanLives Here's the info I was trying to link last time:

www.statista.com/statistics/288256/violent-crimes-in-england-and-wales

www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/shameful-statistics-show-a-mental-health-crisis-that-is-spiralling-out-of-control-as-demand-far-outweighs-capacity-warns-bma

labour.org.uk/press/government-urgently-needs-to-tackle-staggering-increase-in-anti-social-behaviour

'During the first two decades of the 20th century the police in England and Wales recorded an average of 90,000 indictable offences each year, a figure which increased to over 500,000 during the 1950s.

The crime rate consequently quadrupled from 250 crimes per 100,000 people in 1901 to 1,000 by 1950.

But the history of crime in the 20th century is dominated by the even sharper rise in offences recorded by the police since the late 1950s. During the 1960s there was acceleration in recorded crime: it was the only decade in the century where crime doubled. Crime continued to rise according to this measure for much of the remainder of the 20th century, with an average of over one million crimes recorded each year in the 1960s, increasing to two million during the 1970s, and 3.5m in the 1980s.

There is no simple answer as to why crime rates increased so markedly in the second half of the century.'
UK Parliament.

I wouldn't use the word 'hopeful'. I don't know of any research that's been conducted on the correlation between societal breakdown and the decline of Christianity - how would you even quantify that? It's not only the aspects I listed previously, but a general attitude shift. People in general seem to have become more self centred, entitled, less community focused, rude, aggressive and unhappy. Yes there have been certain improvements, but we've lost our collective soul.

@PermanentTemporary So very sorry to hear about your husband. I've no direct experience of suicide thank goodness, but know friends and neighbours who've lost loved ones this way in the past couple of years and my heart breaks for them.

@pointythings You're right in thinking I don't support assisted dying. However, I have seen first hand the effects of a few nasty degenerative diseases so I understand why some would want to go down that route. It's not my place to judge.

Basically we could use a new imperial truth type ideology that would be defined by the core values of reason and respect for the methodology of science and human progress that could be used to replace the traditions of religion, superstition and faith.

Source Warhammer 40k philosophy.

@Vincitveritas I would be very, very careful about drawing conclusions from those crime stats - bear in mind that much of what is recorded as a crime now would not have counted at the beginning of the 20th century. That doesn't mean that things like coercive control, domestic violence, hate speech, racially aggravated crime, sexual crimes against women, children and men did not happen - they did. They were just not recorded.

Crime has been falling since 2003, something you conveniently forgot to mention. If you look at the 2011 and 2021 censuses, secularisation continued apace after 2003, so your assertion about the rise in crime and the fall in participation in religion looks shaky at best.

@pointythings
Chances are with life being more busy, more various form of activities, and the enlightenment that is Google, and science etc, that could also be various factors , plus then it's the mind set of people thinking why wait till your zzz so to speak,

Of course the big sacrifice on Gods say so was God setting up a system whereby his son had to be sacrificed as part of his game. In fact the whole of Christianity is based on the concept of Child sacrifice for gods plan being the ultimate show of love.

But I find it difficult when Christian’s demonise suicide, after all Jesus effectively suffered suicide by cop.

@OMG12 I'm not demonising it at all, every case is a total tragedy.
Jesus did not commit suicide. He gave up His life for mankind in much the same way as if someone were to stand in your place on the gallows after you've been given a death sentence, even though they were completely innocent of the crime.

'There is no doubt that Christians affirm the central claim that Jesus is a sacrifice for the sins of humanity. In the New Testament, Jesus seen as a Passover sacrifice (e.g, Jn. 19:14;1 Cor. 5:7-8); an unblemished sacrifice (1 Pet.1:19; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 7: 26-28; 9:14; 1 Pet. 2:21-25); a sin offering (Rom 8:3; 2 Cor. 5:21) and a covenant sacrifice (e.g., Mk. 14:24; 1 Cor. 11:25). As Eph. 5: 2 (a proof text) says, “And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.”

...In the New Testament, the ancient sacrifices all bleed into one: Jesus is the lamb of God, associated with the paschal offering, which becomes a sin offering. And once Jesus becomes the prime sacrifice, no other offerings were needed. At the beginning of this chapter, we cited Romans 3:25, where Paul speaks of the Christ as “put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith.” The Greek term the NRSV translates as “sacrifice of atonement” is hilastērion. Paul is referring to Leviticus 16:13–15:

Leviticus 16:30: “For on this day atonement shall be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins you shall be clean before the LORD.”

Several subsequent verses in Leviticus clarify the atoning nature of the blood:

Leviticus 16:33: “He shall make atonement for the sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and all the people of the assembly.”

As these verses testify, atonement according to Leviticus is not accomplished through prayer, contrition, and fasting but through precisely following rituals of blood manipulation.

But with this issue comes some questions:

The Bible makes it quite clear that God hates human sacrifice. Thus, God forbids (human) vicarious atonement (e.g., Exod 32:31-33; Num 35:33; Deut 24:16; II Kgs 14:6; Jer 31:29 [30 in Christian Bibles]; Ezek 18:4,20; Ps 49:7). And God prohibits human sacrifices (e.g., Lev 18:21, 24-25; Deut 18:10; Jer 7:31, 19:5; Ezek 23:37,39). Thus, human sacrifice is associated in the Old Testament with evil practices such as sorcery and divination, which are also detestable to God.

So, if God hates human sacrifice, why did He sacrifice Jesus?

In response, God didn’t sacrifice Jesus. Rather, Jesus gave up his own life. No one forced Him. He laid down His life willingly, as He made clear speaking about His life: “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again” (John 10:18).

Also, Jesus wasn’t just a human. We don’t believe that one human life could possibly cover the sins of the multitudes who ever existed. The only viable sacrifice must be an infinite one, which means only God Himself could atone for the sins of mankind.'
(CJF Ministries)

Rather, Jesus gave up his own life

Which is what suicides and those who choose voluntary euthanasia do.

Funny, you stopped quoting right before it says:

Over the period, there were significant changes to the types of offences recorded as crime, and how they are counted, making it difficult to accurately assess underlying trends in ‘real' crime. Recorded crime levels have also been affected by the behaviour of the public in reporting crimes to the police. An increase in the number of burglaries reported, for example, may partly be due to the relatively recent need to inform the police in order to make an insurance claim, rather than an indication of any real increase in the level of burglary.

New inventions, creating new opportunities for misdemeanour, a growth in the value of ordinary people's personal property, and the criminalisation of drug use have had real effects on crime levels during the 20th century. The most obvious example of an invention that has spurred crime is the motorcar: by 1991, a car was being reported stolen on average once every minute across England and Wales. Aeroplanes made international transport and smuggling easier, while the growing use of computers has created new kinds of offences.

The puzzle for today's criminologists is to explain falling crime. Recorded offences reached 6m in 2003, and a steady decline has since been seen in most kinds of recorded crime, with particularly steep falls in some offences such as burglary. Some argue that improvements in security, particularly modern systems to prevent vehicle intrusion, have significantly reduced the opportunities for committing crime. Others contend that imprisonment, policing or demographic factors play the most important role.

@ShodanLives yes, I spotted that too. That wasn't good faith posting. Not in the spirit at all.

@ShodanLives & @pointythings Yes, I deliberately missed that out because I was highlighting the fact that crime has grown since the turn of the century - exponentially so since the 1960s. A steady improvement in some types of crime since the early 2000s doesn't negate that.

@Vincitveritas you might not have given quite so much of an impression of cherrypicking if you had simply posted a link.

You haven't responded to the other points raised by @ShodanLives and myself re changes in reporting, changes in recording and new types of crime. You have also failed to address the overall fall in recorded crime since 2003. That's 20 years of decline coinciding with 20 years of secularisation of society.

You won't get away with presenting distortions of information; this is Mumsnet, people check and follow up.

And conveniently missing out the part that says just because crime reporting is going up doesn't mean more crimes are being committed.

@pointythings Don't worry, I was fully expecting it!😄Long time lurker of mumsnet before giving in and registering.

Crime rates are not always accurate. I'm sure many, many crimes today go unreported - I've tried a few times to get the police interested in something and their response was, "Fill in the online form". Don't even try getting through on the non emergency number! Maybe your lucky and it's different in the Netherlands. Anyway, as I said before, this isn't just about crime rates but a change in attitude, which cannot be reliably quantified.

You're 🙄

@Vincitveritas I've lived in the UK for almost 26 years.

So let me sum up:

• you cherrypicked data because parts of it did not fit your narrative of less religion = bad
• you are now saying 'oh well, those stats are probably wrong anyway'

So either way, what you posted above is meaningless.

Who?

@ShodanLives It was a typo.

@pointythings I don't think it's meaningless at all. I can't translate what I'm trying to say through data and statistics, so there's little point in continuing this line of inquiry. Besides, it's taking us further away from the original theme of the thread.

The whole point is God doesn’t force you in any way. He doesn’t demand at all - he offers and you can choose.
He doesn’t throw anyone into a burning hell - if after death you meet God and decide you don’t wish to go to heaven, then you will not be with God in heaven and will just end your existence.
Comparing him to an abusive husband is extremely insulting to victims of domestic abuse.
God loves you Speakout whether you respect him or not. He loves you so much he won’t force you (or anyone) to love him. You have the choice. You have made yours and that is absolutely fine. You have obviously read the Bible and come to an informed decision.
Christians would disagree with many of your conclusions though. For example slavery has nothing to do with Christianity- it was the culture amongst humans at the time of the Old Testament. Christians (eg William Wilberforce) brought about the abolition of slavery and continue to actively fight against it to this present day (it is more of a problem in 2023 than it was at the time of the Old Testament). Wars were not caused by religion- they were caused by men wanting more power. Noah’s ark is allegory. Rules such as what clothing to wear or what food to eat from the Old Testament were appropriate guidance for the time and culture they were written, not rules for today.
I wonder if you are getting your Biblical interpretations from non Christian sources that are biased against Christianity? Have you considered studying Biblical interpretation from sources that are not anti-Christian? Just to open your mind a little.
For sure there are many awful Christians but there are just as many awful Atheists.
No one is perfect and, luckily for me, you don’t have to be perfect to be a Christian. I try to live a good life and always follow the 10 commandments but I often let God down. God understands humans always do wrong things and make wrong choices, that’s why he sent Jesus to us so we can all go to heaven if we choose.
I am sure that after death, upon meeting God, some people will not choose heaven and that is fine, God allows us to choose, but it is our choice. We can all go to heaven, even those who spend their time on earth railing against God. God loves all of us, including those who don’t love him.

As God doesn’t exist and I’ve broken most of the 10 commandments, hell for me then!!

@Vincitveritas now you're rowing back. You tried to use distorted data as proof that the world is on a dark path, you got called out, now you're saying 'oh well, you can't illustrate it with data anyway'. Which leaves us to conclude that your statement that the world is on a dark path is just an opinion and nothing more.

The point I think you were trying to make was that religion is in decline and crime was rising to then conclude that maybe the decline in behaviour is due to the lack of god and people following religion.

But with some family's being with family and doing different activities ect these days is more important than being at church basically talking to the air and hoping God whispers back

@Hawkins003 that was clearly the point OP was trying to make. We all know that. My objection is that the point was made using cherrypicked and misrepresented data, not to mention conflating correlation and causation. That's not good enough.

As God doesn’t exist and I’ve broken most of the 10 commandments, hell for me then!!

@Parker231 We all make mistakes, there's still time to find God in your heart and ask for forgiveness.

Rather, Jesus gave up his own life

Which is what suicides and those who choose voluntary euthanasia do.

@Elphame First of all, Jesus didn't kill Himself, the Romans nailed Him to a cross. Secondly, self sacrifice is completely different to suicide/assisted dying.

@pointythings If it makes you happy, I will admit, in the absence of any strong proof, it remains at present a theory. I nevertheless stand by it. You can drop the bone now.

@Hawkins003 I'm not sure what you mean by "doing different activities ect these days is more important than being at church".

@Vincitveritas this isn't about a bone, this is about being honest in debate. If you had said from the outset 'I feel that the world is heading towards a dark place and it is my theory that...' we would all have let it go. But you presented it as fact and manipulated the information you presented. That makes it very hard to trust a thing you say.

I had a Jehovah's witness in my house a few weeks ago. I invited him in because it was cold and we had a good, honest conversation in which he presented his beliefs, I presented mine in an atmosphere of mutual respect. He didn't do any of the things you have recently done on this thread. I'm actually really disappointed in you.