Page 34 | Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

Sausagenbacon · 2023-01-28T11:15:05+00:00

and why does Justin Welby bother with her? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her. I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it. I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 20:36

@ShodanLives
"But they wouldn't be in love with someone of the same sex if they weren't already gay or bisexual, but your saying they would chose to be gay or bisexual because they're in love with the same sex? That doesn't make sense."

This is comes first the chicken or the egg question.

Love is freely given, it cannot be forced so therefore it is not a compulsion. If there is a feeling of a lack of choice it is a compulsion and not love. Are you actually saying gay love is not love? Rather it is a compulsion? That is surprising to say the least...

Unless you are only talking about sex and compulsion in the absence of love. So sexuality in the absence of love. Which, in terms of the thread, isn't really what marriage is.

I'm not sure about sexuality in the absence of love. I'm not sure I could be very attracted to someone I had no love for.

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 20:41

"Why wouldnsomeone chose to fall in love with someone of the same sex when they could get them killed?"

@ShodanLives

Maybe denying that love felt more harmful than death.

MeganTheeScallion · 20/02/2023 20:51

Are you actually saying gay love is not love?
@echoesacrosstheether that reach is unbecoming and quite obviously in no way what the poster meant. I hope you regret typing that. You're better than that, I'm sure.

MeganTheeScallion · 20/02/2023 20:55

I'm not sure about sexuality in the absence of love. I'm not sure I could be very attracted to someone I had no love for.

But do you accept that many, many people are, at one point or another (or many others) in their lives? What's your opinion on that?

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 20:57

@MeganTheeScallion, using hyperbole for effect? Now where have I sen that?...

Look I'm not superhuman so don't hold me to higher account than everybody else.

But yes, you are right, it is not very kind. And I do know how it feels. So sorry for that.

ShodanLives · 20/02/2023 20:58

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 20:36

@ShodanLives
"But they wouldn't be in love with someone of the same sex if they weren't already gay or bisexual, but your saying they would chose to be gay or bisexual because they're in love with the same sex? That doesn't make sense."

This is comes first the chicken or the egg question.

Love is freely given, it cannot be forced so therefore it is not a compulsion. If there is a feeling of a lack of choice it is a compulsion and not love. Are you actually saying gay love is not love? Rather it is a compulsion? That is surprising to say the least...

Unless you are only talking about sex and compulsion in the absence of love. So sexuality in the absence of love. Which, in terms of the thread, isn't really what marriage is.

I'm not sure about sexuality in the absence of love. I'm not sure I could be very attracted to someone I had no love for.

You've fully lost me now. If someone falls in love with someone of the same sex they are either gay or bisexual. Someone who falls in love with someone of the same sex must LGB. Which according to you is a choice. So the must make that choice before falling in love. So falling in love cannot be a reason for that choice.

And of course I'm not saying gay love isn't real love jfc you accuse me of twisting your words.

MeganTheeScallion · 20/02/2023 20:58

So sexuality in the absence of love. Which, in terms of the thread, isn't really what marriage is.

That's a good point, actually, I had lost sight of that to be honest.

ShodanLives · 20/02/2023 20:59

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 20:41

"Why wouldnsomeone chose to fall in love with someone of the same sex when they could get them killed?"

@ShodanLives

Maybe denying that love felt more harmful than death.

But why choose that love in the first place?

Also, not everyone who had been persecuted for their sexual orientation has ever fallen I'm love.

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 21:03

"But do you accept that many, many people are, at one point or another (or many others) in their lives? What's your opinion on that?"

@MeganTheeScallion, I don't really have much of one. For me I'm not sure it would feel genuine. I'd feel like I was using them or they were using me or that we were using each other. It would just feel too mechanical like going through the motions to me. You'd be better off asking someone else as to the value of it.

MeganTheeScallion · 20/02/2023 21:06

@echoesacrosstheether I wasn't using hyperbole upthread, I was drilling down into the core, the logical conclusion, of what was being proposed, which I found abhorrent. I explained at the time and I stand by it.

I don't hold you to a higher standard, but if you pride yourself on your cool head & calmness in debate then you're only setting yourself up.

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 21:07

"But why choose that love in the first place?"

@ShodanLives, because they value love as more important than life without love.

Bruuuuhhhh · 20/02/2023 21:10

ShodanLives · 20/02/2023 20:29

So what's you're point? They shouldn't have allowed blessings?

Show quote history

My point is that there are lots of Christians, Anglican in this case, who are very unhappy at the moment.

FurAndFeathers · 20/02/2023 21:12

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 20:36

@ShodanLives
"But they wouldn't be in love with someone of the same sex if they weren't already gay or bisexual, but your saying they would chose to be gay or bisexual because they're in love with the same sex? That doesn't make sense."

This is comes first the chicken or the egg question.

Love is freely given, it cannot be forced so therefore it is not a compulsion. If there is a feeling of a lack of choice it is a compulsion and not love. Are you actually saying gay love is not love? Rather it is a compulsion? That is surprising to say the least...

Unless you are only talking about sex and compulsion in the absence of love. So sexuality in the absence of love. Which, in terms of the thread, isn't really what marriage is.

I'm not sure about sexuality in the absence of love. I'm not sure I could be very attracted to someone I had no love for.

Actually you’re the only person saying gay love is not love as you are the only person incapable of understanding that same-sex attraction is not a choice, and defining love as ‘freely given’.

it isn’t. Romantic ‘Love’ a biological reaction comprised of a range of hormonal, neurochemical and pheromonal reactions, supported by behaviours that are evolutionarily driven to support survival through enhanced social bonds.

so yes it is forced - through highly evolved mechanisms that have demonstrable evolutionary value.

Are you genuinely claiming that you can ‘choose’ to control your neurochemistry etc?

if so you’re, clearly a superior being 😂

ShodanLives · 20/02/2023 21:13

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 21:07

"But why choose that love in the first place?"

@ShodanLives, because they value love as more important than life without love.

Yes that's very nice but why would they chose to specifically fall in love with someone of the same sex?

ShodanLives · 20/02/2023 21:13

ImnotanumberIAMAFREEMAN · 20/02/2023 20:30

I'm starting to get dizzy...

I know what you mean.

MeganTheeScallion · 20/02/2023 21:18

@ShodanLives @ImnotanumberIAMAFREEMAN yup. Reminds me of another poster earlier in the thread. Frustrating.

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 21:21

@MeganTheeScallion

"I wasn't using hyperbole upthread, I was drilling down into the core, the logical conclusion, of what was being proposed, which I found abhorrent. I explained at the time and I stand by it. "

You were projecting a possible conclusion over the implications of a possibility mooted. Not the only conclusion to be had plus you don't discount the possibility because you find the outcome unpalatable. So what if someone chooses their sexuality? Why is that not allowed? If you could choose your sexuality would you choose differently?

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 21:23

"Yes that's very nice but why would they chose to specifically fall in love with someone of the same sex?"

@ShodanLives, maybe the they just chose to fall in love.

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 21:25

@MeganTheeScallion, why frustrating? Do think everyone should agree exactly on every single thing. Even the things which they just might be possibilities?

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 21:25

Which they think

ShodanLives · 20/02/2023 21:26

Bruuuuhhhh · 20/02/2023 21:10

My point is that there are lots of Christians, Anglican in this case, who are very unhappy at the moment.

Show quote history

Tough tits, frankly. No one is forcing them to get into a same sex relationship, or to bless one. It just shows the futility of compromising to appease homophobes.

ShodanLives · 20/02/2023 21:30

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 21:23

"Yes that's very nice but why would they chose to specifically fall in love with someone of the same sex?"

@ShodanLives, maybe the they just chose to fall in love.

Why?

Getting a straight answer out of you is like getting blood from a stone...

FurAndFeathers · 20/02/2023 21:32

echoesacrosstheether · 20/02/2023 21:23

"Yes that's very nice but why would they chose to specifically fall in love with someone of the same sex?"

@ShodanLives, maybe the they just chose to fall in love.

As before, it’s not a choice.

HTH

MeganTheeScallion · 20/02/2023 21:33

@echoesacrosstheether sorry I thought you were referring to an accusation of hyperbole made some time ago, not today. Apologies.

Anyway, please can you clarify in plain language, with reference to what was said, what you mean by "projecting a possible conclusion over the implications of a possibility mooted. Not the only conclusion to be had plus you don't discount the possibility because you find the outcome unpalatable."?

Please also can you state what I think is unpalatable? Because I'm not sure even I know...!

Re. frustrating: I certainly don't think we should all have the same opinions, no. I wonder if that assumption is projection? I disagree on many things with my friends, family and colleagues and enjoy talking about them, or don't bother talking about them if it would be upsetting for either party. It's not that. I just don't like how circular some posts can be, and some of the language chosen appears to be employed to obfuscate. In my opinion.

MeganTheeScallion · 20/02/2023 21:34

Getting a straight answer out of you is like getting blood from a stone...

Well, there is that...