Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

[Sausagenbacon]

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

As I said, we aren't going to agree on this. You think it's beautiful, I think it's horrific. Fortunately I don't believe it ever happened.

At least this has been a respectful discussion, for the most part.

@pointythings, I see that. But it does sadden me a little. I think we all have a longing for unity. Finding things in common is life affirming. But you're right to point to being respectful because unity ceases to be unity if it is forced. It's here I think free will is pertinent. I had hoped to share something of how I view things but there often is a separation between people which prevents this. But thankfully, this does not preclude friendship.

@echoesacrosstheether I imagine you have a diverse range of friends, as do I - people from across the religious and ethnic spectrum, people with disabilities and not. I co-facilitate a support group for relatives and loved ones of people in addiction because my late husband was an alcoholic, and the lady I run it with is a Christian. She and I disagree on just about everything (she is also very Tory!) but she is a lovely person, we have a common purpose and we like and respect each other. Our ability to be like that means there's hope for humanity yet.

"Our ability to be like that means there's hope for humanity yet."

@pointythings, couldn't agree more!

No one has ever met this god,not once. The bible was written by men (never a woman) who had never met this god. Just because a bloke called Jesus turns up and says he is his son etc, doesn’t prove that this god exits. So how do you or anyone know “what god wants”?. Anyone can make those claims, and many subsequently have. Self appointed holy men, throughout the ages, convincing people they are speaking god’s words, “knowing” what god wants them to do, “knowing” what this god wants from us, humans. It’s a self given, religious mandate that has subsequently meant that these holy men have the power to ultimately determine what is wrong and what is right, in society, to interpret the bible, and all the religious texts, in which ever way they want, in order to justify their actions, and stances on issues in society, in order to have this power over society and people who follow them.

But more often than not, they use this belief in “god” to justify, and therefore deem as acceptable, a lot of bad behaviour.

I often wonder how much of the rest of Leviticus these bible quoters have read.

So you like anyone so long as they don't believe in God or a god? Why do people who believe in God upset you so much? The Satanic Temple has (officially and openly) started to perform ritual abortions. That's akin to ritual child sacrifice. Are you ok with that?

Are you for real? Do you actually believe that?

@BitOutOfPractice yeah, Leviticus is pretty dreadful stuff. What irks me is that the Bible users are often the ones who go on and on about the New Testament having superseded the old, but then the moment they are challenged on things like LGBT issues and the rights of women, they come out with the OT as justification for their beliefs. I mean, you can't have it both ways.

I do enjoy using Leviticus against the odd in-your-face religion pusher we get round here. We have both JW and Mormons and while most of them are respectful and keep their distance, I've had the odd one get right up in my face. They ended up not enjoying the experience.

Why do people say the Bible was written or used by evil men to subjugate the masses when the opposite is true? The Bible exposes the evil elite. Watch this film about Nimrod to find out exactly whose side of humanity the Bible is on.

@HandyLady are you being deliberately obtuse here? The Bible has been used for political purposes for as long as it has been around - to justify land claims, to permit slavery (and indentured servitude is a form of slavery!) and to oppress women. It has been translated, edited and revised over and over again.

To say otherwise is to demonstrate a complete failure to understand history.

The same applies to any 'holy' books - they are tools to be used, and people use them.

Stop it with the silly YouTube videos. We don't need indoctrinating.

And I am still waiting for your research evidence concerning changes in sexual preference/conversion to Christianity as requested further back in this thread.

Weren't the Spanish Inquisition, the burning of Joan of Arc and many other martyrs, and the witch trials based on Biblical texts, though, @HandyLady? As well as the examples that @pointythings mentioned.

Sorry but I have to limit my attention to your demands as they are very hostile and in no way suggest a desire to learn. Please watch the video to gain some understanding of the nature of the Bible, should that be your wish.

You can't accuse others of being hostile while pushing conversion therapy.

@HandyLady you are assuming I have not read the Bible. I have. It's just that I do not interpret it in the same way that you do. So no, I will not be watching silly one-sided videos.

You should look into the Jezebel spirit.

Just looked it up - I am not sure what you are trying to say with your statement? Having read the lyrics it reads as pretty damn offensive. From what I can gather it is based on a recording of an exorcism. The lyrics are deeply offensive to me, suggesting that a woman who is not submissive to a man and who lives her life in freedom must therefore be possessed. This is the kind of Christianity that gives the entire faith a bad name.

It is also offensive in another way: it assumes that anyone who hears voices must be possessed, and that is horrific. It is a view of mental ill health that is completely outdated. As the parent of someone who has BPD and hears voices I find those lyrics and the underlying view of them incredibly hurtful.

If you somehow feel that these lyrics are appropriate to me then you are no Christian.

Bloody Mary persecuted Protestant Christians because of her religious beliefs based on her and the Catholic Church's reading of the Bible, @HandyLady. They were burnt at the stake.

Witchcraft was demed as heresy because it was and condemned by Pope Innocent, and between 1484 and 1750 some 200,000 people were executed for witchcraft. Deuteronomy 18, 9-12 says, “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord.”

I would argue that, in both these cases, the evil elite were using the Bible to support their acts, and that the Church did not expose these evil elites, or use the Bible to condemn them - instead it supported and encouraged them.

And yes, I have read the Bible - cover to cover.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius but we must not have read it right, because we don't agree with @HandyLady 's interpretation...

Indeed, @pointythings - shame on us, eh!

@HandyLady further reading into the Jezebel Spirit tells me it is basically superstitious nonsense. There's no such thing as demonic possession. There's no god, there's no satan, there's no angels, there's no demons.

You'd better hope so.

Oooh, well that isn't getting into personal attack territory at all... 😂

Is that a threat?

@poweredbysteam I think it's more of an accusation - the poster thinks I must be possessed because I don't believe the same way she does. I must say it's novel - I've been on MN for 13 years now and have been called many, many things but this is a first.