Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

[Sausagenbacon]

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

Yes, equally human and should have the same access to those seats as everyone else.

There are no seats specifically reserved for neo-Marxists, Dadaists, gay people, Star Wars fans or even (officially, anyway) capitalists. The Christian clergy should have no preferential access over clergy of other religions, atheists, or literally anyone else.

You seem to be missing the point that no one is saying that people of faith or church officials should be banned from the legislature. Just that they should have the same rights of access as anyone else.

The Lords is an archaic, outdated mess and should be ditched. But at least the appointed Lords have some kind of popular mandate via the elected politicians who appoint them (though it's a very small 'at least' and the system is hopelessly corrupt.)

However, the existence of other problems doesn't make reserved seats for clergy objectively right or desirable.

Can we all agree that state-sponsored discrimination against four year olds is bad?

Apparently at 'theocracy is better than democracy'? Because that seems to be the logical conclusion of that statement.

I don't know. Maybe God likes you better than the people he abandoned?! The fact is, some Christians do feel abandoned, whether you want to accept that or not. Their experience was that their God was not there to help them through their suffering, despite all of the promises that he would be.

It makes no sense for you to ask me why i think you were not abandoned, because for someone to be abandoned or not abandoned implies a belief that God was there in the first place. And while I respect your belief that he was/is, I don't share that. Consequently, I would frame it as you maintaining your belief in God through whatever struggles you have experienced, and finding comfort in those beliefs, while others have lost theirs. I don't actually think that God has abandoned anyone because I don't think he was ever there.

Really where do you start?

You start by bringing in PR and replacing the HoL with an elected second chamber, also using PR. That way every vote carries equal weight in a way that it now does not. People don't realise how badly FPTP skews elections so that minorities of the voting public end up creating huge majorities.

Yep, and if religious groups want representation in that system, they can convince people to vote for them.

As for why some people lose their faith through adversity while others retain theirs, I don't honestly know. It would make an interesting academic study for someone. However, I believe that the factors are likely to be psychological/environmental, rather than because of anything "out there". I appreciate that you will obviously feel differently.

Exactly. Nobody is objecting to the representation of religious viewpoints in our legislative process. The problem is how they get there, and the automatic privilege that is extended to one set of beliefs but not others.

It makes no sense for you to ask me why i think you were not abandoned, because for someone to be abandoned or not abandoned implies a belief that God was there in the first place. And while I respect your belief that he was/is, I don't share that. Consequently, I would frame it as you maintaining your belief in God through whatever struggles you have experienced, and finding comfort in those beliefs, while others have lost theirs. I don't actually think that God has abandoned anyone because I don't think he was ever there.

@pointythings, so equally, the Christians you said felt abandoned weren't either, according to your perspective. Because if you don't believe God was ever there He cannot abandon anything.

But the upshot is I have hope (against what is humanly thought possible) which in my experience alleviates suffering and has served to alleviate my own. The opposite experience is despair and no respite from suffering. Surely you can see why I cling onto hope?

As for why some people lose their faith through adversity while others retain theirs, I don't honestly know. It would make an interesting academic study for someone. However, I believe that the factors are likely to be psychological/environmental, rather than because of anything "out there". I appreciate that you will obviously feel differently.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, as I have said, I am nothing special. But I suppose I have seen what despair looks like (too clearly) and rejected it.

I think that was for me rather than @pointythings. And yes, you're right. I don't believe that anyone was abandoned because I don't think God was ever there in the first place.

My point is not that God abandoned anyone. Merely that God does not appear to have been present helping to alleviate suffering for people who were absolutely willing and eager to accept that help if God had actually been there. Which brings me back to my question as to why a loving, all-powerful God would allow his creations to suffer. I was told that we had to accept his help. Unfortunately, the experience of those individuals who have felt abandoned demonstrates that asking for help and being open to accepting it isn't always enough. So what now, is God playing favourites?

And yes, of course I understand why you cling onto hope. That's a very human thing to do, and for your sake, I hope that you will always be able to retain that hope. Sadly, I have worked with victims of extreme trauma for whom any sense of hope has been utterly extinguished. I'm sure that this colours my view.

But that implies that rejecting despair is a choice that everyone is free to make. Having worked with people who have endured truly unimaginable suffering, I just don't agree with that. It sounds like you are blaming those people for not being positive enough, for not somehow managing to choose hope in spite of all that has happened to them. When the reality is that some of them have been ground down to the point that there is just no hope left. Do you see why that could sound quite smug and dismissive of their experience?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves sorry my mistake there.

My point is not that God abandoned anyone. Merely that God does not appear to have been present helping to alleviate suffering for people who were absolutely willing and eager to accept that help if God had actually been there. Which brings me back to my question as to why a loving, all-powerful God would allow his creations to suffer. I was told that we had to accept his help. Unfortunately, the experience of those individuals who have felt abandoned demonstrates that asking for help and being open to accepting it isn't always enough. So what now, is God playing favourites?

And yes, of course I understand why you cling onto hope. That's a very human thing to do, and for your sake, I hope that you will always be able to retain that hope. Sadly, I have worked with victims of extreme trauma for whom any sense of hope has been utterly extinguished. I'm sure that this colours my view.

But those victims of trauma are not any less human than me. I do not believe God wants them to suffer or has abandoned them. You don't believe in God. So what is left? What about them leaves them stuck in the experience of extreme trauma? Losing hope experiencing despair?

Honestly, I don't know what it is that makes the difference. As I said, I imagine it's a complex mix of psychological and environmental factors. I definitely don't accept that it is because they have somehow failed to choose hope or reject despair. That would be grossly insulting to those individuals and deeply dismissive of their experience. And while I know that you sincerely believe that God doesn't want them to suffer, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of him actually having intervened to stop this. So yes, in my view, the statements about God not wanting us to suffer sound pretty hollow from my perspective.

But that implies that rejecting despair is a choice that everyone is free to make. Having worked with people who have endured truly unimaginable suffering, I just don't agree with that. It sounds like you are blaming those people for not being positive enough, for not somehow managing to choose hope in spite of all that has happened to them. When the reality is that some of them have been ground down to the point that there is just no hope left. Do you see why that could sound quite smug and dismissive of their experience?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves
It certainly is not smug and dismissive. I am speaking from my own lived experience. I scare myself sometimes...what more am I letting myself in for getting through it all? The fear that something else will go wrong. At anytime. Survivor's guilt also. Don't think despair and self hatred doesn't cross my mind.

But it's where my faith comes in. I repeat it like a mantra throughout the day. And it helps. If I don't feel it immediately I meditate on what hope is and faith is. It's why I cherish and protect it. Despair, guilt, self hatred are horrific.

But I'm not smug because I am just as human as the people who don't get through it all.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, incidentally what do you think really helps the victims you have talked about?

And (how) does this change if they actually manage to overcome their traumas, in your view?

And like I say, I'm glad that your faith has helped you. I just don't agree that it's a choice that you can make. You can't choose to keep believing. You can choose to pretend that you believe and to go through the motions of being a believer, but you can't choose what you actually believe deep down inside to be true.

And whether you agree with them or not, some people reach the conclusion at the end of all their suffering that there is no God.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, how do you think beliefs are formed?

That is not an easy question. Faith does help some - not only Christian but other faiths as well. Therapy helps some. But sadly, some don't ever really overcome their trauma. What they have been through marks them for life and they don't ever find a way of really getting past it. Some learn to manage the impact of it better over time. Some have very sadly ended their lives in order to end the misery. Some seem to find solace by throwing themselves into supporting others who have experienced similar horrors. I think it's a very individual thing.

No one size fits all answer.

Some people are indoctrinated in a set of beliefs (religious or otherwise) by their parents. Others encounter beliefs along their journey and find that they make sense to them. What I do know from my own personal experience is that belief is not just a choice. You can't decide to believe something just because you want to.

That is not an easy question. Faith does help some - not only Christian but other faiths as well. Therapy helps some. But sadly, some don't ever really overcome their trauma. What they have been through marks them for life and they don't ever find a way of really getting past it. Some learn to manage the impact of it better over time. Some have very sadly ended their lives in order to end the misery. Some seem to find solace by throwing themselves into supporting others who have experienced similar horrors. I think it's a very individual thing.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves so you if you recognise faith helps some, why would you attempt to pull apart the faith of someone? Would you do the same regarding therapy or anything else that has helped?

I think just as people need to know how to talk to victims they need also to remember how to talk too to the people who have overcome or newly overcome trauma or are in the process of overcoming. This can be equally fragile and in danger of relapse. Not all conversations are helpful to everyone.

Some people are indoctrinated in a set of beliefs (religious or otherwise) by their parents. Others encounter beliefs along their journey and find that they make sense to them. What I do know from my own personal experience is that belief is not just a choice. You can't decide to believe something just because you want to.

Yes, but you can choose to accept or reject interpretations of either your own or other's experiences...or indeed to wait to find out more.

Yes finding out more is always good. I don't think you can necessarily just choose to accept whatever interpretation of your experiences you wish to accept, though. You can try to accept a particular interpretation, sometimes for an extended period. However, if you have a nagging feeling in your gut that it isn't the correct interpretation, or if your rational mind keeps exposing all of the flaws in that interpretation, you can't just make yourself believe something, no matter how much you might want to.

I would add, I think faith is fine as an individual thing. I can see that a lot of people derive strength and comfort from their beliefs. I also know some people who have been motivated by their faith to shoe great compassion and kindness to others. I have every respect for those people.

Where faith becomes problematic, in my view, is when people start to use it to limit other people's choices. So with gay marriage, for example... why is that anything to do with anyone other than God and the individuals concerned? Why do others feel that their faith permits them to make judgements about how others should live their lives? By all means, use your religious book to guide your own choices if you wish, but let others rely on their own interpretations