Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

[Sausagenbacon]

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

Posted too soon, sorry.

What then becomes even more problematic, in my view, is when people start trying to justify the judgements that they have made about how others should live their lives with empty platitudes about how suffering enriches our lives and gives us meaning. That trivialises the very real suffering that people have to endure - sometimes needlessly at the hands of other "believers".

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

I have no wish to pull apart or destroy your faith. It has obviously helped you through some tough times and I am genuinely glad to hear that.

You don't actually destroy my faith but in my case defending it involves revisiting my own trauma which does hurt.

However, I will not keep quiet while you trivialise the suffering that others have been through by suggesting that it could be enriching if only they would just open up to letting God help them - frankly, you have no idea.

Again, by reminding you that I have suffered trauma in order to underline that I do not trivialise it, I again have to revisit that trauma....repeatedly it seems (And in the process reaffirm my faith because that's how I cope.)

If your own beliefs are a bit shaky, then I would respectfully suggest that you might want to step away from this board for a while as this topic will inevitably spark debate.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves
And my beliefs are pretty secure but I still can experience suffering in the revisiting of trauma. It doesn't actually go away. I had have to learn to live alongside the memory of it and in doing and in the process my focus moves on. Which I have found useful.

empty platitudes about how suffering enriches our lives and gives us meaning. That trivialises the very real suffering that people have to endure -

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, do you not see how this statement suggests my own suffering was suffering was somehow less real (than the people you talk of) and more avoidable (than that people have to endure) in it's nature?

It really doesn't. It's just making the point that your experience of suffering and its redeeming qualities is not shared by everyone, and that spreading the message that suffering is good is going to hurt a lot of people for whom it isn't.

@faretheewell it doesn't suggest that at all. Your ability to live successfully (for want of a better word, sorry) alongside trauma does not mean that everyone else can if only they'd follow the Bible.

No, @faretheewell, I am not actually commenting on your suffering. I have never met you and I can't possibly know what you have or haven't been through. And to be honest, that isn't relevant because this is not about you.

I have repeatedly said that I'm glad that your faith has helped you find meaning in what you have been through. I'm merely making the point that others don't necessarily share your experience, they would not agree that their lives have been enriched by suffering and they would not welcome this assertion. And also, this is not their fault because of a lack of faith or whatever. Surely it isn't that difficult to understand that different people will experience things differently process their experiences in different ways?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, fine. However, I am merely sharing my own story. I don't pretend to do anything else. Some people actually find comfort and hope in good outcomes after situations that are generally accepted as traumatic. I know I myself do. It's a risk but in sharing my experiences I hope to reach these people.

Of course it's a risk that it might offend someone. This thread is open to anyone who wishes to join in. Plus, as you pointed out earlier they can leave if they find it too upsetting.

In real life, yes, I am careful about sharing my own story. Even when I don't go into detail people who know some of my history have been genuinely baffled that I am actually well and happy. And there is a distance there that seems to be difficult to encroach upon sometimes.

So no, I wouldn't share my story with someone who was not coping. I'd just offer very practical help should they want it unless they actually indicated they were interested in exploring their faith.

Sorry, I have changed my name. Previously, faretheewell. Will change it again now. Simply because I don't want to remind people of my experience, if they find it upsetting and if they recognise the name and remember my posts, it might trigger this.

Yes, indeed. People can leave the thread if they find it too upsetting.

My suggestion, though @emeraldleaf/@faretheewell is that, if you wish to share your own experiences, then you present them as just that - your own experiences - rather than making blanket statements about how suffering enriches people's lives. The problem is not sharing your own story in the slightest - you have every right to share that and it may well help or inspire others. The problem is only when you assume that your own experience is the same for everyone, or worse, could be the same for everyone if only they believed what you believe. I hope that you can see this distinction.

The problem is not sharing your own story in the slightest - you have every right to share that and it may well help or inspire others. The problem is only when you assume that your own experience is the same for everyone, or worse, could be the same for everyone if only they believed what you believe. I hope that you can see this distinction.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, if only that were true.

I am a walking example of something some people find offensive. When they view traumatic events as something that cannot be overcome . They may at first disbelieve that I am actually ok and then comes the suspicion, then the cross examination and then I'm afraid an (albeit verbal) attack usually minimising what I have experienced or a warning that my current situation may be less good as it appears or sometimes that I haven't come far enough and should be achieving more.

But if those offended people will allow me to stick around then perhaps they'll learn they don't have to be offended by me. I'm not judging them.

But saying that, I only have the stomach for a certain degree of cross examination, suspicion and hostility or suggestions of how I should be doing more. So I will take my leave to simply rest from all that.

@emeraldleaf Your replies do not respond to what is said on this thread. No one is telling you that your personal experiences are wrong or bad or untrue. All is posters on this thread are asking you to do is to please stop universalising your experiences, and with that to stop the implied judgement of others that they just need to believe in what you believe and they'll be okay.

*All that posters

@MeganTheeScallion, I am sharing relevant personal experiences (to the current conversation) not universalising them! It's all any individual can do. I thought that was a given - do have to write a disclaimer every time I post?

Yes, I have beliefs and preconceptions so have shared them. Appropriate, I would have thought, for this discussion board. And I have answered questions on them. They are clearly defined and not that surprising if you know anything about Christian belief.

Is the fact that my personal experiences clearly back up these beliefs which is offensive? That makes you feel that I am judging others? I'm really not. Equally me having hope that it is possible to overcome suffering does not judge people who haven't (yet).

@MeganTheeScallion

No one is telling you that your personal experiences are wrong or bad or untrue.

But thank you for clarifying that.

@emeraldleaf I've been very clear on what is offensive about your beliefs upthread, as has every other poster who disagrees with you. I don't know if it's willful faux-naivety on your part or a genuine inability to read what is written as it is written, but I won't be responding further because it's fruitless and circular. @MrsBennetsPoorNerves in particular has done a brilliant and patient job of articulating the issues. I have nothing more to add.

I wish you well.

@MeganTheeScallion, you don't get it.

It's like people being who are offended by a (nationally sanctioned) lifesaving medical treatment then going on about how much they are offended by the lifesaving treatment to someone whose life has been saved by that treatment.

It expecting too much for that person whose life has been saved to accept that treatment as only ever offensive and intrinsically bad.

No, it really isn't like that in the slightest.

Nobody is offended by the "treatment" itself. Why on earth would anyone be offended by a treatment that clearly helps people? What people are objecting to is the insistence that the same "treatment" will work for everyone, regardless of their illness or condition, and that, if it doesn't, it is because the patient isn't trying hard enough/doesn't have enough faith etc. And indeed the notion that the experience of being ill is always life enhancing for everyone, regardless of how much they suffer and whether their condition improves etc... and that if they don't see this, it's because they're thinking about it wrong.

Like @MeganTheeScallion, I'm now at the point of wondering whether you are wilfully misunderstanding what is being said to you on here, or whether you genuinely have difficulty in comprehending what others have written. If I had to bet on it, I would conclude that you're deliberately twisting what has been said to you because, for whatever reason, it suits your own agenda. To anyone else reading the thread, I think it will be pretty clear that you are repeatedly missing the points that have been made, whether intentionally or otherwise.

I have tried to make myself clear and to respect your point of view, but you are either not listening or you are not understanding, or both, so rather than keep going round in circles, I'm done now. For the last time, I will say that I'm glad that your faith has helped you and given you comfort through difficult times. I hope that you will continue to find comfort in it in future. Sadly, that won't work for everyone.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

So assuming the treatment is religious faith. If people don't have that treatment or reject it / spit it out or relinquish it they before it has done it's work they cannot say that treatment (religious faith) has not worked/helped them heal. They haven't received (the full) treatment.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves but yes, some physical and emotional states can make receiving treatment (of any kind) extremely difficult. So there is no judgment from me if people struggle. I just would do what I could to help to get them to a place where they might feel ready. Whether that be practical help or just being there to listen to vent their frustration.

But I cling on to hope for them.

Oh, I said I was going to give up now, but your responses are too infuriating to ignore.

To follow your medical analogy, there is no single treatment that works for every illness. Different treatments work for different conditions and there are individual factors at play as well.

Sometimes, a treatment that is effective in helping one individual fails to have any effect on another individual. This does not mean that the individual has necessarily rejected the treatment, spat it out or done anything wrong at all! Sometimes, despite the best efforts of both the patient and medical professionals, the treatment just doesn't work.

I don't actually believe that you are so obtuse as to not understand this, so I conclude that you are pursuing your own agenda. And that really is all that I have to say on the matter now.

Sometimes, a treatment that is effective in helping one individual fails to have any effect on another individual. This does not mean that the individual has necessarily rejected the treatment, spat it out or done anything wrong at all! Sometimes, despite the best efforts of both the patient and medical professionals, the treatment just doesn't work.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves but you wouldn't refuse treatment or cease to make it available just because it appears not to have worked for some but has very much worked for others. You also would not be criticised in seeking to explore/investigate as to whether the treatment schedule had properly and thoroughly been carried out in those it hadn't worked for.

<sigh>

No, I would not seek to remove the treatment or cease to make it available. This has not been suggested by anyone at any point. Nor would I object to an appropriate investigation being carried out by a qualified individual to see why it hadn't worked. Crucially, though, I would want such an investigation to be carried out by a neutral person with no stake in the matter - ie not just a former patient with no real understanding or expertise in the field beyond their own lived experience, and not the drug company pushing the treatment either, or anyone else with a vested interest in a particular outcome. Such an investigation would clearly be invalid and pointless.

My objection is to the unqualified patient insisting that, because a particular treatment worked for them, it will inevitably work for everyone else, regardless of their illness or their circumstances etc. And effectively blaming some inadequacy in the patient if it doesn't, instead of accepting the fact that the treatment might not work for everyone after all.

As someone who has supposedly had cancer, I'm sure that you recognise that the same treatment doesn't work for all cancers, and that some cancers simply cannot be cured. Would you blame an individual with terminal cancer for not having engaged with the treatments properly? Can you see why it might be offensive to some if you suggested that?!