Page 15 | Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

Sausagenbacon · 2023-01-28T11:15:05+00:00

and why does Justin Welby bother with her? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her. I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it. I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

pointythings · 04/02/2023 21:29

You see, this is the argument that it always ends up with - it's human interpretation that is the problem.

So why are world religions not doing anything about that? Why are they clinging on to hatred and bigotry instead of truly living following the example of Christ? Aside from being an atheist, I'm quite prepared to believe that Jesus wouldn't have put up with the oppression of women, slavery, the persecution of the LGBT community etc. But organised religion is a completely different beast, and it is not a force for good. The problem is the system. Not the belief.

This is why I have many friends who have a faith - they are excellent human beings who blend humanity and faith. I will never, ever follow a church because the moment religious people get together and start believing things collectively, it all goes horribly wrong.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 21:35

The problem is the system. Not the belief.

This is why I have many friends who have a faith - they are excellent human beings who blend humanity and faith. I will never, ever follow a church because the moment religious people get together and start believing things collectively, it all goes horribly wrong.

@pointythings, now that is so poignant to me! That, there, reaches me! As a Christian, as a human being! Desperately sad, and true. 🥺

I hope we can make a difference.

The posturing and bickering we, can leave that behind, though...or can we? Do we need that for gems like you have just written to come out?

Bruuuuhhhh · 04/02/2023 21:36

pointythings · 04/02/2023 17:51

When he healed a blind man, he was asked what sins the man or his parents had committed - Jesus replied “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

So what I read in that passage is 'God made that man blind so that he could show off'. In what twisted mind is that O

You are also reducing pain purely to the physical by describing it as a marker of 'something wrong'. Not only does that dismiss the suffering caused by mental ill health, it also presumes that pain can therefore be cured. My DC and many others with chronic pain would beg to differ. Pain can be mitigated somewhat, but there are millions of people the world over who have to live with chronic pain and all the things that come with it (mental pain included) every day of their lives. There is no benefit in that. I cannot believe in a God who wants this to be, therefore I choose not to believe in God.

I think your reading of that Bible verse is tainted by your existing assumptions about the nature of God, it is not how I look at it.

I used pain as a sort of analogy - there are obviously different types of pain and mental illness is a very complex issue.

God definitely doesn't want this, God wants everyone to come to him and find peace (Mathew chapter 11 verses 28 to 30) -

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Psalm 23 -

The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
he refreshes my soul.
He guides me along the right paths
for his name’s sake.
Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil,
for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

pointythings · 04/02/2023 21:41

@Bruuuuhhhh I have no assumptions about the nature of God because I do not believe there is such an entity. I do know a fair bit about human nature though.

@faretheewell I do believe we have reached a bit of a revelation. Which is actually lovely. If only all believers and non believers could remember that they are human first and everything else follows from that.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 21:47

@pointythings, pleased we have peace too. Yes, we are all human beings, something which, I agree, we must not forget. My faith is vitally important and defining to me too so I do share it - I don't expect everyone to feel the same but it is nice not to be demonised for it. Because I am human.

Bruuuuhhhh · 04/02/2023 21:48

@pointythings I get you're an athiest but you've also expressed your opinion about the hypothetical nature of (my) God, which I disagree with. Reading the Bible without belief is like trying to watch a 3D movie without the glasses - you can't see the full picture.

pointythings · 04/02/2023 22:02

@Bruuuuhhhh there are many problems with the Bible: There isn't a single version that everyone agrees is correct. It's a document written by people, for people, in its time and of its time and with a heavy political agenda, much translated and redacted. Yes, it takes faith to believe it - which is precisely why we should not use it to guide laws which apply to all humans, believers and non believers alike.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 22:08

Yes, it takes faith to believe it - which is precisely why we should not use it to guide laws which apply to all humans, believers and non believers alike.

@pointythings, but those people making those laws are as equally human as people who don't have the same faith. People without any religious faith will hold just as many beliefs and assumptions as those of religious faith it's just those beliefs and assumptions are culturally based rather than religious. Is a cultural based ideology such as capitalism or communism any more worthy than a religious one?

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 22:11

And for an atheist perspective isn't religious belief a cultural belief anyway? Since you don't believe in God?

Bruuuuhhhh · 04/02/2023 22:11

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 22:08

Yes, it takes faith to believe it - which is precisely why we should not use it to guide laws which apply to all humans, believers and non believers alike.

@pointythings, but those people making those laws are as equally human as people who don't have the same faith. People without any religious faith will hold just as many beliefs and assumptions as those of religious faith it's just those beliefs and assumptions are culturally based rather than religious. Is a cultural based ideology such as capitalism or communism any more worthy than a religious one?

What faretheewell said and also I don't see the Bible the way you do, but we're never going to agree on that.

pointythings · 04/02/2023 22:17

@faretheewell and @Bruuuuhhhh I think it's worthwhile looking at the things we have in common across faith and non-faith position and start with those as a basis for laws that work for everyone. So yes to prohibitions against murder, theft, rape etc. but no way to treating one group of people (straight) better than another (gay) in terms of access to things like marriage, family and love. If we look at common humanity instead of at our differences, we should be able to do so much better, to the point where what we do and do not believe in matters much less.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 22:28

@pointythings

And this view is not uncommon within the church. John Wesley has a lovely speech talking about how to deal with church differences. Here:

www.crivoice.org/cathspirit.html

I think beliefs do matter, though - they can make and break us. They just don't trump love. That is a power beyond ourselves. Which is at the core of my own version of Christianity.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/02/2023 00:43

Bruuuuhhhh · 04/02/2023 21:05

There are only two possibilities. Either God is powerless to prevent human suffering or he chooses to let it happen. It has to be one or the other, unless it is the third option which is that God doesn't exist. I don't see how the rest of your comments address this issue in the slightest.

So, my answer to you was basically that God, in the form of the Holy Spirit, is working to minimise and heal suffering and that also Christians have a duty to help those in need to further reduce it. So God is neither powerless or choosing to let it happen unchecked. My example of Jesus healing a man born blind was aimed at those saying God inflicts suffering because of an individual's sin. The fact that bad things happen to good people is enough to tell us this isn't the case. The other point is was trying to make is that sometimes our internal pain is self inflicted and can act as a catalyst for a change in behaviour, towards ourselves or others.

So God is working to minimise suffering but not doing a particularly good job of it? Or just not trying particularly hard? Sorry, I just don't get it. If an all-powerful God was really working to minimise suffering, then I'm pretty sure that he could get rid of it pretty quickly. He hasn't yet done so, but I still can't quite figure out if you think that's because he can't or because he doesn't want to/can't be arsed to do it properly. Saying that he is trying suggests that you think he is doing his best but can't quite manage it?

SnoozyLucy7 · 05/02/2023 07:28

pointythings · 04/02/2023 20:59

We don't need to obliterate the church. It just needs to stop being a pillar of the state and operate in the same way it does in other countries.

We do need laws to be secularly based. That doesn't mean legislation is going to be perfect; it's not. What it does do is take the 'because God says' out of the process, and that will be a big step forward.

People can believe what they want, but the law must be above belief.

100% agree. In this day and age, the 2 must be very clearly separated.

faretheewell · 05/02/2023 07:49

If an all-powerful God was really working to minimise suffering, then I'm pretty sure that he could get rid of it pretty quickly. He hasn't yet done so, but I still can't quite figure out if you think that's because he can't or because he doesn't want to/can't be arsed to do it properly. Saying that he is trying suggests that you think he is doing his best but can't quite manage it?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, He very much can but we've got to allow Him to. Accept Him working with us to do this. He does not help us when what He would need to do is against our will.

faretheewell · 05/02/2023 07:52

100% agree. In this day and age, the 2 must be very clearly separated.

@SnoozyLucy7 except they can't be when they exist intertwined together. What is religious is also secular since if you don't believe in God - all is rendered cultural. If you do believe in God everything can have a religious element. We live alongside each other, our lives are intertwined.

faretheewell · 05/02/2023 07:56

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves or at least, if He did help us, it would not feel like help and we would not perceive it as such, if it were against our will and we fought it.

JassyRadlett · 05/02/2023 08:26

faretheewell · 05/02/2023 07:52

100% agree. In this day and age, the 2 must be very clearly separated.

@SnoozyLucy7 except they can't be when they exist intertwined together. What is religious is also secular since if you don't believe in God - all is rendered cultural. If you do believe in God everything can have a religious element. We live alongside each other, our lives are intertwined.

This is utter nonsense, sorry.

There is no way that having places reserved for clergy in our legislature can be described as 'secular' or solely 'cultural' with no religious element for non-believers.

The impact of a third of schools giving preferential access to the children of Christians and teaching all children who attend them that Christianity is fact while other religions are 'what some other people believe' doesn't magically evaporate if you're not Christian.

You're guilty of cakeism here - simultaneously saying that religious is all-encompassing for you and should have impact on every element of your life, but will simultaneously have no impact on non-Anglicans while it's allowed to be part of the state.

Yes, the lives of people who believe in gods and those who don't will remain intertwined. That's as it should be. But the structures of the state shouldn't privilege one subset of those beliefs and their followers over others in its structures and funding.

Clergy should not have a role in lawmaking simply because they're clergy of a certain church. Schools shouldn't be able to practise state-sponsored religious discrimination against four year olds.

faretheewell · 05/02/2023 08:47

@JassyRadlett,

Those clergy making those laws are as equally human as people who don't have the same faith.

People without any religious faith will hold just as many beliefs and assumptions as those of religious faith it's just those beliefs and assumptions are culturally based rather than religious.

Is a cultural based ideology such as capitalism or communism any more worthy than a religious one?

And if you don't believe in God, it follows what is religious is merely deemed a cultural construct...which logically would be equal to every other cultural construct such as the ones atheist people hold. Atheism is no protection against culture. Culture can be pretty insidious and pervasive.

faretheewell · 05/02/2023 08:53

And we are talking about the House of Lords! Does inherited/ Roark warranted privilege have any place in law making? Historically, the church has served to keep a check on royals and the gentry. The Lords reflects that.

The House of Lords serves to keep a check on what politicians voted in by the general populace might do. And let's face it something is better than nothing with regard to our current government!

Of course it's all pretty dysfunctional but I feel the clergy being there is the least of our problems!

faretheewell · 05/02/2023 08:53

Royal.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/02/2023 08:58

faretheewell · 05/02/2023 07:49

If an all-powerful God was really working to minimise suffering, then I'm pretty sure that he could get rid of it pretty quickly. He hasn't yet done so, but I still can't quite figure out if you think that's because he can't or because he doesn't want to/can't be arsed to do it properly. Saying that he is trying suggests that you think he is doing his best but can't quite manage it?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, He very much can but we've got to allow Him to. Accept Him working with us to do this. He does not help us when what He would need to do is against our will.

Nice words@faretheewell, but not matched by reality. I know plenty of Christians who have begged God for help with their suffering but to no avail. Some have even lost their faith as a result of feeling so abandoned. If your theory was true, this would not happen.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 05/02/2023 09:05

faretheewell · 05/02/2023 08:47

@JassyRadlett,

Those clergy making those laws are as equally human as people who don't have the same faith.

People without any religious faith will hold just as many beliefs and assumptions as those of religious faith it's just those beliefs and assumptions are culturally based rather than religious.

Is a cultural based ideology such as capitalism or communism any more worthy than a religious one?

And if you don't believe in God, it follows what is religious is merely deemed a cultural construct...which logically would be equal to every other cultural construct such as the ones atheist people hold. Atheism is no protection against culture. Culture can be pretty insidious and pervasive.

You're missing the point.

Yes, I think religious beliefs are cultural. And yes, the Bishops in the HoL are every bit as human as the others. And yes, it's absolutely fine to have religious people involved in that law-making process. Of course it is.

What people are objecting to is the privileged position of the Church of England in our legislature. Why do the representatives of one religion automatically get seats in the Lords when representatives of other beliefs don't?

Yes, the privilege of the Bishops is not the only problem in the HoL. I would get rid of all of the hereditary peers as well.

faretheewell · 05/02/2023 09:05

Nice words@faretheewell, but not matched by reality. I know plenty of Christians who have begged God for help with their suffering but to no avail. Some have even lost their faith as a result of feeling so abandoned. If your theory was true, this would not happen.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, why wasn't I abandoned then? Why don't I feel abandoned? I'm really not anything special. I'm not especially brave or strong or anything. I'm pretty ordinary.

faretheewell · 05/02/2023 09:07

What people are objecting to is the privileged position of the Church of England in our legislature. Why do the representatives of one religion automatically get seats in the Lords when representatives of other beliefs don't?

Yes, the privilege of the Bishops is not the only problem in the HoL. I would get rid of all of the hereditary peers as well.

Yes, the Lords is full of privilege. But look at what the populace voted for. Is that really any better?

Really where do you start?