Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

[Sausagenbacon]

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

well you're dancing around the issues here and it's understandable because to admit that you think children bring abuse on themselves because they're born broken is too outrageous.

@MeganTheeScallion, no I don't think that..and I'm not doing any dancing. You are using hyperbole in at attempt to cause division and outrage.

what gratitude filled meaning would you like abused children to find in their situation? The one they invited by being born flawed.

@MeganTheeScallion, no. The gratitude can be found in that abuse need not define them.

So why do you think that Hod would allow an innocent baby to be abused?

Do you believe that he is powerless to stop it? Or does he stand by and allow it to happen because it's all part of his grander plan? Does you believe that the child's life will be "strangely enriched" as a result of the abuse?

What is difficult to understand - and frankly impossible to believe - is that a loving, caring and all-powerful God would design us in that way and not intervene to do anything about it. It makes no sense, and I have never seen any Christian manage to produce a plausible explanation for this.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, He did intervene through Christ!

@faretheewell your beliefs are outrageous. I'm drilling down into the logical conclusions of what you're suggesting is true. You can't make absurd, offensive statements about the meaning of suffering and not expect push back. Have faith in your faith and explain it, or don't. Up to you and your free will, innit.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves baby should have prayed harder I guess?

But the intervention didn't work because people are still suffering!

It seems that you are saying it works for the people who choose to persuade themselves that it's working. From an objective point of view, though, the suffering hasn't stopped.

And now, I find these repeated, purposely hyperbolic arguments are beginning to offend me. The answers I've given are sufficient. So I'm taking a rest.

I just think that a loving, all-powerful God would be able to come up with a better solution.

@faretheewell you tell yourself that. You've convinced no one.

But but but it's all our own fault for being born @MrsBennetsPoorNerves . Naughty us, we should have been born better. Sigh.

🤷‍♀️ I tried. @MeganTheeScallion. All I can do is share my thoughts and experiences. Might help some people, might not. I thought it worth taking the risk.

The answers you have given are sufficient? Well, not from my perspective. How are the arguments hyperbolic? Do you think that innocent babies never suffer abuse? They are valid questions. I'm sorry if they cause you offence, but I would suggest that you're feeling discombobulated by them because you can't really answer them.

That isn't your fault. Religious scholars have never been able to answer these questions. That's usually why we end up with the Isaiah type explanation that suggests that the suffering of innocent people is all part of God's grander plan that we as flawed humans just can't understand. But again, I go back to my earlier point that a loving parent would help us to understand.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves do you think I deserved cancer? Or my DC deserved to have (had) learning difficulties? Or that I deserved to survive & my DC deserves to be at university looking forward to a career in research? I don't make sense of the world in terms of who deserves what. Too transactional and not my experience.

But again, I go back to my earlier point that a loving parent would help us to understand.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

I think He does. But this is difficult to verbalise to someone who does not want to find any meaning in what I am saying. I am disregarded from the outset.

No, I don't believe that, and I'm not sure what I have said that makes you ask this question. My point is precisely the opposite... that lots of suffering is completely undeserved. You are the one who is linking suffering to human imperfection. I think it's totally unrelated.

But I would be interested in understanding why you believe that your God allowed you and your children to suffer if you don't think that it was somehow deserved, ie the inevitable consequence of human flaws. That seems to have been your whole argument on this thread so far.

FWIW, I also don't see the world in that transactional way. It's abundantly clear to me that bad things often happen to good people, so people don't get what they "deserve". That's one of the reasons why I don't believe in God, I suppose. If he was real, there would be more justice.

I am not disregarding you. I am trying to understand how you make sense of things, but I still don't see your logic.

And it isn't that I don't want to find meaning. I tried for years to find meaning, until I concluded that there wasn't any.

But I would be interested in understanding why you believe that your God allowed you and your children to suffer if you don't think that it was somehow deserved, ie the inevitable consequence of human flaws. That seems to have been your whole argument on this thread so far.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, I might have done something to cause it, might not have. I might have inherited something, might not have. Might be environmental, might not be. I don't know.
The world has systems, natural laws. Cause and effect. We do not understand all of them.
So who is to blame? Does God blame me?

I'm still here. And happy. And find my Faith strengthens me. Without it I might not be here...I'd give up if I considered the statistics!

I think the pile on at faretheewell is uncalled for. No one while on this earth is immune from suffering, even (or especially) Christians but God is not the cause of it. The Bible states that other entities, or spiritual authorities are running the show with Satan as head. So much of the evil in this world, such as child abuse is inflicted by other humans. God warns anyone who does these things, particularly to the innocent and vulnerable will receive their just punishment. He came to earth in the form of Jesus to offer us hope from suffering. After judgement day the earth will be renewed and it will be as originally intended, before the fall - lambs will lie down with lions and pain, grief and suffering will be a distant memory.

So are you saying that God is powerless to prevent the suffering but he will punish it later? Or do you think that he chooses to let the suffering happen and plans to punish it later?

@faretheewell If you consider the expression of heritable genetic variation to be heritable flaws connected directly to original sin you are on a fast track to the territory familiar to eugenicists.

I am not saying the you would personally dispense of whole classes of people, but something about your turn of phrase disturbs me.

I am not perfect but who are you and your god to tell that am flawed? That from the moment I was born, I was born flawed, imperfect and sinful? Who are you tell people that there innate humanity, and all it’s nuances and complexities of that human nature, is innately flawed and only praying to your god, may receive forgiveness or not?

Clearly you see your self as flawed, and only your god can only help you with that, but don’t call other people that. Because it’s not true and it’s an awful view of other humans and their humanity. I remember being taught that, as a child, and it messed with my mind and detrimentally informed my life later. Then I had my own child - my beautiful baby, born flawless, perfect, and I realised what an insidious concept that is and it makes zero sense.

@erinaceus absolutely not! That's why epigenetics is so important! And I do actually believe Christ can improve our situations in this life!

Sheesh! This is what puts me off Mumsnet. People are very quick to judge.

@SnoozyLucy7, this is just semantics! Not perfect and flawed are synonymous!

@erinaceus, I am arguing the absolute opposite of eugenics! If eugenics were valid my reason for existence ceases!