Page 11 | Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

Sausagenbacon · 2023-01-28T11:15:05+00:00

and why does Justin Welby bother with her? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her. I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it. I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 04/02/2023 14:00

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:51

The whole 'God wants you to suffer because it is good for you' thing is one of the reasons why I choose to believe that there is no God.

@pointythings, I don't believe God does want us to sufffer..it's just that this is inevitable since we are flawed. Suffering is part of the healing process. I know that only too well (cancer treatment)!

But again, the idea that it's inevitable because we are flawed is deeply insulting. What has an innocent child done to cause their suffering?

It's a strange, petulant, vengeful god that punishes innocent children for the so-called sins of their forefathers. It makes no sense to any rational person.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 04/02/2023 14:03

Also, if you believe in an all powerful God, then why can't he design a better healing process in which people don't have to suffer at all? Why didn't he design us so that we wouldn't need healing in the first place?

In any case, I fail to see how the trauma that my dh experienced as a child has "healed" him in the slightest. It has only caused damage and pain.

pointythings · 04/02/2023 14:05

@faretheewell if God doesn't want us to suffer, but we suffer 'because we are flawed' isn't that essentially victim blaming? I can't see it any other way. And my kids and I absolutely did not do anything to deserve what my late husband did. It happened because he chose alcohol and what it did to him, not because we were 'flawed'.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 14:06

But again, the idea that it's inevitable because we are flawed is deeply insulting. What has an innocent child done to cause their suffering?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

Nothing. But our flaws are not right and they cause suffering. And these flaws are inherited plus we can add to them. God, through Christ, provided salvation but that is not complete in this life.

It's a strange, petulant, vengeful god that punishes innocent children for the so-called sins of their forefathers. It makes no sense to any rational person.

Yes we can inherit flaws....it's how genetics works. We can also overcome these flaws. A physical glimpse of this can be seen in the way epigenetics can work. Genetic tendencies are not fixed.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 04/02/2023 14:09

pointythings · 04/02/2023 14:05

@faretheewell if God doesn't want us to suffer, but we suffer 'because we are flawed' isn't that essentially victim blaming? I can't see it any other way. And my kids and I absolutely did not do anything to deserve what my late husband did. It happened because he chose alcohol and what it did to him, not because we were 'flawed'.

Yes, it is victim blaming from my perspective as well. With the concept of original sin introduced to ensure that innocent children can take their share in the blame.

I get it. If you want to believe in a loving god, then you have to find some kind of convoluted explanation for why that god would allow so much suffering. People rationalise it in whatever way they can, but at the end of the day, the arguments don't really stack up as far as I can see. Suffering is one aspect of human existence that the church has repeatedly failed to explain.

erinaceus · 04/02/2023 14:10

@faretheewell “Yes we can inherit flaws....it's how genetics works.”

Are you able to expand on this further? What do you understand by epigenetics?

Do you have an explanation of the inheritance of flaws as you put it that might make sense to Christians who do not believe in the theory of evolution by natural selection?

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 04/02/2023 14:13

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 14:06

But again, the idea that it's inevitable because we are flawed is deeply insulting. What has an innocent child done to cause their suffering?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

Nothing. But our flaws are not right and they cause suffering. And these flaws are inherited plus we can add to them. God, through Christ, provided salvation but that is not complete in this life.

It's a strange, petulant, vengeful god that punishes innocent children for the so-called sins of their forefathers. It makes no sense to any rational person.

Yes we can inherit flaws....it's how genetics works. We can also overcome these flaws. A physical glimpse of this can be seen in the way epigenetics can work. Genetic tendencies are not fixed.

I accept that you're trying to make sense of all this in your own head, but honestly speaking, it is deeply offensive to suggest that children suffer trauma because of their own flaws, inherited or otherwise.

SnoozyLucy7 · 04/02/2023 14:18

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:12

@SnoozyLucy7, would you not prefer to give them the chance? We're already all flawed and all have the potential to encounter awful experiences.

Give who a chance? And we are not all flawed - what an unpleasant thing to say, to believe of yourself and others.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 14:21

@erinaceus

Are you able to expand on this further? What do you understand by epigenetics?

Gene expression can be altered by the physical / psychological environment.

Do you have an explanation of the inheritance of flaws as you put it that might make sense to Christians who do not believe in the theory of evolution by natural selection?

Biblically? The passages concerning inheritance of sins in the OT and the freedom from that Christ provides in the new.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 14:22

@SnoozyLucy7, excuse me, are you perfect?

MeganTheeScallion · 04/02/2023 14:25

@faretheewell you honestly believe that an abused baby had it coming because they're a flawed human being?

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 14:25

I accept that you're trying to make sense of all this in your own head, but honestly speaking, it is deeply offensive to suggest that children suffer trauma because of their own flaws, inherited or otherwise.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, my body has flaws..it wasn't working correctly. I got ill with cancer. The person close to me who had to be hospitalised with mental health issues had an altered brain chemistry that could be measured. To say we have flaws, I didn't think is offensive. Just true. How is it offensive?

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 14:27

@MeganTheeScallion erm no! Obviously not. The human race is flawed/imperfect we hurt each other. How is that so difficult to understand?

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 04/02/2023 14:27

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 14:21

@erinaceus

Are you able to expand on this further? What do you understand by epigenetics?

Gene expression can be altered by the physical / psychological environment.

Do you have an explanation of the inheritance of flaws as you put it that might make sense to Christians who do not believe in the theory of evolution by natural selection?

Biblically? The passages concerning inheritance of sins in the OT and the freedom from that Christ provides in the new.

But if Christ has supposedly offered freedom from inherited sins, why do children still have to suffer as part of the "healing" process? What was the point of Christ's sacrifice if the suffering carries on as it always did?

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 14:29

But if Christ has supposedly offered freedom from inherited sins, why do children still have to suffer as part of the "healing" process? What was the point of Christ's sacrifice if the suffering carries on as it always did?

Indeed. Thing is we need faith in His sacrifice for it to mean something to us.

MeganTheeScallion · 04/02/2023 14:29

@faretheewell because you're saying we have to be grateful for and find meaning in horror because we're flawed because we've become too separated from God.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 14:31

@MeganTheeScallion and..?

pointythings · 04/02/2023 14:31

I don't understand why anyone would want to go through the intellectual contortions necessary to reconcile the prevalence of suffering with the existence of a benevolent God. And the kicker is that in all but one of the church events I've attended, there's been some snide swipe at us poor atheists and how miserable we must be because we do not know God. Don't worry about us, loves. We're happy and we don't need one.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 04/02/2023 14:31

Sportswomansrest72 · 28/01/2023 12:24

I think it’s terrific that such an intelligent and measured person like Sandy Toksvig is asking all of the hard questions. After all, these are the very same questions that thousands of members of the C of E, and Catholics for that matter, are asking.

Surely any citizen of the uk is entitled to have a chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury in his role as head of the established church, if he deigns to meet with them? Why on earth shouldn’t ST meet with him or are gay people excluded from public debate?

For that matter, if the “greatest of all these is love” why doesn’t that encompass gay people?

The Rev Richard Cole’s has written a very good article on this subject in the Independent.

Why so sneery and defensive op?

Show quote history

I agree 100%, @Sportswomansrest72.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 04/02/2023 14:31

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 14:27

@MeganTheeScallion erm no! Obviously not. The human race is flawed/imperfect we hurt each other. How is that so difficult to understand?

It isn't at all difficult to understand that the human race is flawed and that we hurt other. We all know that.

What is difficult to understand - and frankly impossible to believe - is that a loving, caring and all-powerful God would design us in that way and not intervene to do anything about it. It makes no sense, and I have never seen any Christian manage to produce a plausible explanation for this.

MeganTheeScallion · 04/02/2023 14:32

@faretheewell you're dancing around the issues here and it's understandable because to admit that you think children bring abuse on themselves because they're born broken is too outrageous.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 14:33

@MeganTheeScallion sorry should have said the grateful bit comes in overcoming of horror.

MeganTheeScallion · 04/02/2023 14:34

@faretheewell what gratitude filled meaning would you like abused children to find in their situation? The one they invited by being born flawed.

MeganTheeScallion · 04/02/2023 14:35

@faretheewell PP have already told you that not everyone can overcome it. And the idea that it was all worth it because it's over now, is absurd.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 04/02/2023 14:36

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 14:29

But if Christ has supposedly offered freedom from inherited sins, why do children still have to suffer as part of the "healing" process? What was the point of Christ's sacrifice if the suffering carries on as it always did?

Indeed. Thing is we need faith in His sacrifice for it to mean something to us.

So it's a completely circular argument then.

Suffering is only meaningful if you have faith that God will somehow make it meaningful? In other words, it has meaning for as long as you keep trying to convince yourself that it has meaning? That's a pretty hollow argument tbh but I'm glad it gives you comfort.