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Why is Sandi Toksvig so interested in the C of E?

1000 replies

Sausagenbacon · 28/01/2023 11:15

and why does Justin Welby bother with her?

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/26/sandi-toksvig-laments-untenable-church-of-england-stance-on-gay-marriage

She's not a christian, but feels entitled to have a chummy chat with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is wet enough to indulge her.

I'm not particularly invested in the subject, and I am an Anglican, but I do think there is something frankly, pitiful about it.

I expect an article in next week's Guardian with a sad-faced Sandy talking about how the local Mosque/Synagogue won't marry her and her partner, and how 'unsafe' she now feels. Or not.

OP posts:
erinaceus · 04/02/2023 11:58

@faretheewell Interesting point of view. I remain unconvinced but maybe I’ve got time to get there.

I read that quote and think “well if I was the clay I think I’d have a few issues with whoever got me into such a state of affairs tbh”.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 11:59

We are human beings and have flaws. This can be painful. We all can suffer pain and cause it....and help alleviate it. Sometimes just understanding this is healing.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 12:06

I read that quote and think “well if I was the clay I think I’d have a few issues with whoever got me into such a state of affairs tbh”.

It goes right back to the beginning. We were designed to be in complete unity and communion with God. When we took on knowledge instead we were attempting to 'go it alone'. We got the knowledge of good and evil....potentially constantly struggling within ourselves and amongst others. And this has been inherited and added to generation after generation. This struggle is where the pain comes and what we have to somehow find peace amongst.

JassyRadlett · 04/02/2023 12:12

QueenHippolyta · 03/02/2023 19:38

Honestly I don't get it. I'm a Lesbian and a polytheist witch. I left Judaism as a child due to the sexism and frankly abusive nature of their god. Christianity and Islam have the same issues.
Why does SToksvig care? It's not her religion. I'm very happy with mine. Leave other people's religion alone if it's not affecting your rights.
I'm sick of constant LGB demands....we are asking for a backlash.

It's literally in what she said and has been explained a number of times on this thread.

This is the established church. That is, it's the religion of the state and the government.

As long as that's the case, anyone is entitled to have a view on it. If it would like non-Anglicans to leave it alone, it should reciprocate.

carbonarya · 04/02/2023 12:36

Leave other people's religion alone if it's not affecting your rights.

The CofE campaigned against the legalisation of civil same-sex marriage. They've never been content just to impose their religion on their own members. * *

figmaofmyimagination · 04/02/2023 12:43

Sausagenbacon · 30/01/2023 14:18

So you have no problem whatsoever with homosexual relationships/marriages?
None whatsoever. But I'm not sure that it is right to go against what the Bible obviously says and allow the Church to do the wedding. And I feel the Church is stronger when it doesn't feel the need to fit in with society.

You’re clearly not a particularly deep Bible scholar- if you were you would know that the Bible in it’s original languages is much less clear on this topic than you’re making out.

I do hope you’re not typing whilst wearing any mixed fibre garments.

Luminalintel768 · 04/02/2023 12:49

Wow. Some lovely Christian sentiments being expressed on this thread … .

SnoozyLucy7 · 04/02/2023 13:09

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 11:54

@erinaceus, I get the Isaiah quote, I think. It's like what would you do with an answer to that question? The meaning, I think, will come with living it out. Like when we suffer - you think why? It's terrible. But then when you get through it your life experience is strangely richer.

But for so many people, they often don’t get through “it”, what ever terrible thing it is that has happened to them. They continue to live their lives often with trauma, depression, anxiety, haunted by the awfulness of their experiences. So often what doesn’t kill can indeed make you weaker and traumatised for the rest of your life. And their life experience is definitely not or strangely richer for it. Why would any father allow such an existence, the constant, never ending trauma for so many people in this world, who have suffered so much? Why would you give this god thanks and glory? Clearly Isaiah had no clue about what he was talking about.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:12

@SnoozyLucy7, would you not prefer to give them the chance? We're already all flawed and all have the potential to encounter awful experiences.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:13

And maybe just a short glimpse of meaning is enough for this life to give it purpose.

pointythings · 04/02/2023 13:18

That Isaiah quote is basically the old parenting fail 'Because I said so' dressed up pretty. This is what religions do - they don't have answers, so they just demand that we do not question.

I've watched my kids suffer from having an abusive alcoholic father. Did that make them stronger? Maybe. Does that make it OK? Fuck no. The 'suffering is a good thing' trope is just another cheap cop out.

Any deity that demands that the gay and lesbian people they have created live without the joys of marriage, sex and procreation is a monster.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 04/02/2023 13:20

@faretheewell, I have read your posts several times and they make no sense to me whatsoever. To me, it sounds like you are desperately trying to rationalise suffering that you don't understand and that you're trying to find a way of making sense of it without allowing it to damage your world view which centres around a loving God. To me, it looks like the mental gymnastics of someone who can't actually find a meaningful explanation at all.

Some people may find that their lives are enriched by suffering, but for so many people, that is not the case at all, and it's actually quite insulting that you would try to suggest that it's so. If it makes you feel better to believe that "God" has a secret plan that justifies his apparent cruelty, then by all means, carry on telling yourself that, but please realise that most people won't be remotely convinced by that argument.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:22

@pointythings

The 'suffering is a good thing' trope is just another cheap cop out.

Not cheap at all. I've had cancer, close relatives died from cancer, dc diagnosed with severe learning difficulties, had a brush with Lymes, people close to me suffering with mental health issues (enough to be hospitalised), redundancy...the list goes on. Would you write my life experience off as meaningless?

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:26

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

Some people may find that their lives are enriched by suffering, but for so many people, that is not the case at all, and it's actually quite insulting that you would try to suggest that it's so.

And it's this sentiment that adds 'survivor's guilt' to my list (see last post.)

pointythings · 04/02/2023 13:29

@faretheewell I am not dismissing your experience at meaningless, but ask yourself - would your life really have been less meaningful if you had not suffered all that? Because I can honestly say for myself and my DC that our lives would have been better without everything that my late husband put us through. The 'suffering is good' trope is horrifically offensive to many.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:30

I can't say @pointythings because it wouldn't be my life.

pointythings · 04/02/2023 13:35

@faretheewell but can you understand that not everyone feels the same way about suffering and religion as you do? The whole 'God wants you to suffer because it is good for you' thing is one of the reasons why I choose to believe that there is no God. I derive immense comfort from my belief that there isn't an all powerful being who claims to be all knowing, all loving and yet wants people to suffer. Far better for me to believe that sometimes bad things just happen.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 04/02/2023 13:40

@faretheewell, I'm glad that you have managed to find meaning in your suffering. Unfortunately, that isn't the experience for many people, so what purpose do you think it has in their lives?

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:45

The 'suffering is good' trope is horrifically offensive to many.

I get it. Suffering is horrific and offensive by its very nature. But finding meaning in (spite of ) going through it is not.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:47

Unfortunately, that isn't the experience for many people, so what purpose do you think it has in their lives?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, how do you expect me to answer this? How could I possibly know? How do I know if they haven't found at least a glimpse of meaning at some point?

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 04/02/2023 13:48

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:45

The 'suffering is good' trope is horrifically offensive to many.

I get it. Suffering is horrific and offensive by its very nature. But finding meaning in (spite of ) going through it is not.

Of course. It is wonderful when people are able to find meaning through it. However, that is not everyone's experience at all.... quite the contrary.

pointythings · 04/02/2023 13:49

@faretheewell there is a huge difference between going through something dreadful and finding you are stronger from it on the one hand and being told when you are in the midst of it that this is all OK because it's what God wants for you. The latter is what too many of the religious spread about. It was said to me. I am still proud of myself for not resorting to violence or offensive language.

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:51

The whole 'God wants you to suffer because it is good for you' thing is one of the reasons why I choose to believe that there is no God.

@pointythings, I don't believe God does want us to sufffer..it's just that this is inevitable since we are flawed. Suffering is part of the healing process. I know that only too well (cancer treatment)!

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:54

pointythings · 04/02/2023 13:49

@faretheewell there is a huge difference between going through something dreadful and finding you are stronger from it on the one hand and being told when you are in the midst of it that this is all OK because it's what God wants for you. The latter is what too many of the religious spread about. It was said to me. I am still proud of myself for not resorting to violence or offensive language.

I find people have a knack of saying the wrong things at the wrong times. Or nothing when they should say something. Good for you for not reacting.

One person said to me my cancer was worse for my DH than for me...cue guilt for being ill...

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 04/02/2023 13:56

faretheewell · 04/02/2023 13:47

Unfortunately, that isn't the experience for many people, so what purpose do you think it has in their lives?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves, how do you expect me to answer this? How could I possibly know? How do I know if they haven't found at least a glimpse of meaning at some point?

My husband had to endure terrible suffering in his childhood that haunts him to this day. I can assure you that he has found no glimpse of any meaning in it. It's utterly without value.

If I believed that there was a god, I would think it was incredibly cruel. The only thing that actually enables him to get through it is to understand that it was just random. I think the idea that someone had deliberately imposed this on him in order to enrich his life in some way would break him...it's a monstrous thought. Thankfully, he doesn't buy in to that at all.

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