Do narcissists ever suffer at all?

[Woodflower]

For what they do to others, are they just gettimg away using other people for their own narcisstic joy?. So the set of people who arnt narcs are just protecting themselves while narcissists just glide through by hurting everyone in their way?.

Dealing with narcissists ideas are just a bunch of ideas to the person asking , to run away from them or brace to their charge or to start meditating.

Whats the point in being a kind human being while 'perks' are all going to narcissists?

Sorry I am asking because I want to know if karma EVER bite narcs.
Why would anyone develop a kind nature if given a choice to live life without thinking about others and just be self centered while others just dodge you as they are not capable of being so heartless.

I have seen many narcs living and dying as narcs without a regret. No regrets life. They want their children to be narcs else they will be victims for narcs.

What do you all think?

Thanks ruminating. Definitely in recovery and doing really well as have a very supportive DH. Was so lucky not to end up in an abusive relationship as I know how common that is for children of abusive parents. Am NC with them, they brought only stress, anxiety and sadness into my life.

How are you doing?

@Themostwonderfultimeoftheyear Pleased to hear you're doing well and enjoying life with your supportive dh.

My situation is a bit different as the toxic person in my life was a former colleague and male "friend". I am mostly okay as it was 13 years ago. I need to stop obsessing how horrible they were and how stupid I was for falling for their manipulation over and over again at the cost of my integrity and self. Thanks for asking.

I can relate to this thread, it really resonates with me. I too went down several internet rabbit holes getting the gist of narcissim. Mostly to find out wtaf the narc I'm related to was all about.

I found Quora. Very interesting.

However, here is one of the nuggets I remember, 'stand over the grave of the narcissist and read them a letter, then at least you will know why they are ignoring you.'

Also I understood that they have the emotional maturity of a four year old. That explained a lot.

Some of the phrases used to describe a narc and/or their behaviour were chillingly accurate. Right down to some of the phrases they use.

It's the lying I cringe over most. That I was all too willing to be taken in (have my trust abused). Even when they were smirking though another (plausible) drama story.

V interesting thread, I am dealing with a work colleague who I suspect is a narcissist, unfortunately I'm unlikely to get away from them any time soon.

Do narcissists tend to think of themselves as perfectionists ? They think they do everything perfectly and everyone else is doing a bad job even if it's quite obvious that's not the case ? Can they fool therapists into giving them other diagnoses such as depression, anxiety or PTSD ?

@Fargonauts

Do narcissists tend to think of themselves as perfectionists ? They think they do everything perfectly and everyone else is doing a bad job even if it's quite obvious that's not the case ? Can they fool therapists into giving them other diagnoses such as depression, anxiety or PTSD ?

I think they think they are perfect and have no flaws or if they do, then they will do anything to cover it up, deflect, project and gaslight. They don't seem to care about morals or getting someone else in trouble to get what they want. They also see themselves as better than others which why they one up their targets who they not so secretly envy.

Not sure about fooling therapists into diagnoses, but you do hear about how they can manipulate them with their stories.

The narc I knew had a history of depression and went off work with "sickness" although I think it was more to do with something they did at work that needed investigating..

@ItisLikethis

I'm really so sorry for those who have to deal with a narcissistic parent.

After much reflection, I feel one of my parents might possibly have been raised by a parent with high narc tendencies, so I can attest to the long term trauma it can cause.

I also feel deeply saddened that this evil exists and I strongly believe that religions have been formed to help protect us from this.

I'm no 'dyed in the wool' Christian, but I know the life of Christ teaches us that righteousness in all its forms is more often than not ridiculed and lambasted by the forces of evil. On earth this could be in the form of narcissism, ignorance, indifference, hate in all its forms. And if you believe in the afterlife, heaven and hell. I personally believe in final retribution.

Saying all this, I firmly believe that shielding yourself and your loved ones from this; practicing love, tolerance and realisation; while speaking up/standing up as far as possible for all that is good is the only way to overcome hate/evil.

I'm intrigued by the Christians on this thread and your religious take on the situation. FWIW my father loathes Christianity and made my mother choose between Jesus or him when they were dating. He was scathing when he discovered two of his children had become Christian and actually taught Sunday school. I absolutely do not think he is the devil nor that he has the devil inside him 0 not at all, but I do think he hated Jesus and God because he couldn't stand the idea of anything more important than himself.

@Ruminating2020

Those who had parents that were narcs, when did you have your lightbulb moment? Was it something you only realised more recently as an adult or did you sense something wasn't right with your relationship as a teenager?

I only realised when I was fifty. Don't know how it took me so long, but the entire family worshipped him and he got away with appalling behaviour because that was 'just the way he is'. And because he has redeeming features as many narcs do - full of life, loves a party. I never understood why I left family parties feeling profoundly depressed. Now I do.

From my own experience of narcissists (mostly professional) I do think they can flip in and out of b out dependent on the relational context. That's why it's so frustrating to be in a relationship with someone with these traits. No one else believes you. I don't necessarily think it's always deliberate though, they deceive themselves... Their dark traits emerge in the context of their attachment system being activated.

I also think there's a continuum, not many people meet the criteria for NPD but a lot have traits. It often seems to be a learnt coping strategy for dealing with absolutely debilitating low self esteem, lots of narcissistic people are pretty sad and inadequate underneath it all and have a very fragile sense of self. One of the reasons I no longer work in direct clinical work (mental health) is due up narcissists presenting with low mood/severe depression but then being very convert, threatening and frankly bullies in therapy. They're impossible to work with and their ability to split teams mean you very rarely get anywhere.

Thanks @Labobo and sorry to hear that you endured narcissistic parenting for so long. Had you known about narcissism before this moment? Do you think then as Christians, your family forgave him because that's what Christians are meant to do?

I hope that now that you are aware of your DF and narcissism, you are in a better place and healing from his behaviour.

In response to your question about religious view on the situation, I believe that the toxic person in my life was sent by Satan as a way of testing me during a transition in my life.

The person also claimed to be Christian but just didn't do "organised religion", this should have been the major red flag for me but I remained "friends" with this person. I was feeling increasingly pressured and under attack by this person that I didn't know who I was anymore. I was ashamed of myself and felt a fraud being a Christian while associating with this person rather than discerning that this person was neither for Christ nor for me.

It is only after reading up on narcissism that I realised that this person was mentally not sound - the gaslighting, blatant lying, confusing circular conversations, the Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde personality switch, the complete lack of empathy and morals and the inappropriate responses at others being harmed. This way of behaving does not come from a good source.

@Nuitsdesetoiles

From my own experience of narcissists (mostly professional) I do think they can flip in and out of b out dependent on the relational context. That's why it's so frustrating to be in a relationship with someone with these traits. No one else believes you. I don't necessarily think it's always deliberate though, they deceive themselves... Their dark traits emerge in the context of their attachment system being activated.

I also think there's a continuum, not many people meet the criteria for NPD but a lot have traits. It often seems to be a learnt coping strategy for dealing with absolutely debilitating low self esteem, lots of narcissistic people are pretty sad and inadequate underneath it all and have a very fragile sense of self. One of the reasons I no longer work in direct clinical work (mental health) is due up narcissists presenting with low mood/severe depression but then being very convert, threatening and frankly bullies in therapy. They're impossible to work with and their ability to split teams mean you very rarely get anywhere.

That is absolutely frightening that they can do that, but I guess not surprising since they use manipulation in every interaction. You must have been extremely strong mentally to have noticed this and left, as I understand that even professionals can be groomed by narcissists and sociapaths.

To be honest despite finding it mentally tough I still had empathy for them, as I could see where it all came from (often environmental) particularly when narcissistic parents build children in their own image so as to bask in their reflected glory and don't see them for who they are with their own identity. My frustration wasn't so much with them (even though they were infuriating!) it was the v system around them. Some professionals over empathise with people with challenging interpersonal traits and enmesh with them as they have this belief that unconditional empathy and compassion will cure people. For those of us with clearer and more explicit boundaries we would then become demonised and be on the receiving end of the rage. Which could sometimes last a LONG time making any therapeutic work impossible. I had a supervisor who was strongly against any kind of abandonment when working therapeutically, so even if we were being abused and threatened by our patients (not physically usually more covertly as in trying to destroy our reputation) then we should stick with them as the relationship itself would be the healer. However as I'm human and not just a therapist I decided that wasn't for me! I enjoy doing assessments and training but therapy is out for me now.

@Nuitsdesetoiles

From my own experience of narcissists (mostly professional) I do think they can flip in and out of b out dependent on the relational context. That's why it's so frustrating to be in a relationship with someone with these traits. No one else believes you. I don't necessarily think it's always deliberate though, they deceive themselves... Their dark traits emerge in the context of their attachment system being activated.

I also think there's a continuum, not many people meet the criteria for NPD but a lot have traits. It often seems to be a learnt coping strategy for dealing with absolutely debilitating low self esteem, lots of narcissistic people are pretty sad and inadequate underneath it all and have a very fragile sense of self. One of the reasons I no longer work in direct clinical work (mental health) is due up narcissists presenting with low mood/severe depression but then being very convert, threatening and frankly bullies in therapy. They're impossible to work with and their ability to split teams mean you very rarely get anywhere.

I totally agree that they are very fragile in their esteem and sense of self. There's nothing resilient and robust in their personalities, even though they can seem overbearing.

Gosh, this is so interesting.

My narc accompanied me to marriage guidance and completely won the therapist over, and intoned I was having some kind of mid life crisis. I told the therapist in my 1-2-1 session that I was scared and frightened of his behaviour, and repeated that information very clearly every session.

But you are right about their fragile self esteem. He needed attention and adoration every step of the way. At home and the office. And he spent a lot of money keeping up with his wealthier friends.

Narcissists hate Christians.

Sometimes they pretend to like Christians and befriend them.

Dealing with someone who is clearly unwell with anxiety but doesn't seem to get any better despite lengthy therapy and I suspect their underlying narcissism is the root cause and the reason they will never actually get better. They also think the world should adapt to them and don't feel any personal responsibility to try to improve their mental health.

@ItisLikethis

Sometimes they pretend to like Christians and befriend them.

Spot on. They pretend to have something in common with you to prey on you and gain your trust.

The one in my life was impressed with himself for deconverting someone at university.

*Sometimes they pretend to like Christians and befriend them.

Spot on. They pretend to have something in common with you to prey on you and gain your trust.*

The narc I'm related to has been going to church for many years. Something I didn't understand because they no more believe in God than they are able to fly in the air. (Oh yeah, I thought, what's all this going to church business about ?) It was to get their kids into a faith school. Which they achieved, ultimately. Means to an end. Who knew ? Our family don't Christen their children. Well, you do, obviously. Like I said, all means to an end.

However it did dawn on me that it was another group activity and there's nothing a narc's charismatic ego likes better than a group to be greeted and worshipped by. No matter what or where that group is.

They even did a popular 'Questioning Faith' course (endorsed by one of the Spice Girls, apparently.) Which surprised me because they had been a regular churchgoer for many years. But, of course, it was another group for their ego.

Their kids were christened in different churches. Both separate to the one they worshiped in. The reason being, 'we don't go to that church anymore because.......we just don't.'

I wondered if 'my narc' was going to upgrade their faith from Presbyterian to main stream Catholicism as the drama of the crucifixion would be right up their street. (Apologies if that offends anyone, except them.)

I also thought that they go to church to brown nose the power base i.e. God. However, he knows the secrets of our hearts.

OK, so, with that in mind, it's just another (easily accessible and free) group for their ego. Yep, nothing to do with God, or religion, or faith or compassion for their fellow man/woman.

I've always thought, 'one day, people are going to know what you are really like.' My husband has remarked, that, over the years enough people have sussed them. Not many, but, enough.

I've found that they use Christians and just take and take whilst maintaining an illusion that they are contributing as they have to be involved in everything. They seem under the impression that everyone will put up with them trying to take over and making everything about them.

A church event is planned and the focus changes from the event inself to whether they can get transport to the event, making a big deal that the premises aren't set up as the narc wants and then the narc being in an obvious mood because she's unhappy with minor details. Everyone else is trying to run the event whilst being distracted by the narcs histrionics.

What's the strongest memory of the event - it's purpose or the narc's behaviour?

We all are on the spectrum with regard to narcissism. Without it, we would not have any self worth.
www.businessinsider.com/narcissism-vs-narcissist-2018-11?r=US&IR=T
Narciss
There are many good things about narcissism
www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/toxic-relationships/201910/can-narcissism-ever-be-good
Labelling anyone who falls foul of you as a narcissist is dangerous. I wonder how many of the posters claiming their partners, mothers, mills, SILs are narcissists really know if they have a diagnosis. I suspect many labelled as 'narcs' on MN are just unpleasant people.

Great thread.

I found Out of the Fog website really useful for dealing with narc family members. (Plural!!!!)

@Parkperson

We all are on the spectrum with regard to narcissism. Without it, we would not have any self worth. www.businessinsider.com/narcissism-vs-narcissist-2018-11?r=US&IR=T Narciss There are many good things about narcissism www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/toxic-relationships/201910/can-narcissism-ever-be-good Labelling anyone who falls foul of you as a narcissist is dangerous. I wonder how many of the posters claiming their partners, mothers, mills, SILs are narcissists really know if they have a diagnosis. I suspect many labelled as 'narcs' on MN are just unpleasant people.

Personally, when I use the term narcissist, I mean someone with high narcissistic traits - lack of empathy, self absorbed, emotionally deficient, uses others to get what they want, manipulative and controlling and generally extremely toxic.

Whilst I agree that we are all on the spectrum and we can all exhibit traits of narcissism, I would argue against narcissism in general being a good thing. Narcissistic individuals do not have good self esteem and it's not healthy to feel good at someone else's expense.

The reason why narcissists don’t feel empathy is because they’re in constant survival mode feeling like their true self is unlovable and so they need to dissociate form it as much as possible and make up lies and force others to dissociate form their realities too with false narratives etc because to them that’s how you survive life.

Why wouldn’t they be in survival mode if they’re not suffering??

Inherently being a narcissist is as a result of suffering.

Being kind means you are able to love and cherish yourself and extend that to others. That’s the biggest gift you can do to yourself and it’s what a narcissist envies.

If you want to punish a narcissist just ignore them and grey rock. You will deprive them of what they consider to be essential “survival” tools whixh usually leach of you.

It’s enough suffering to turn them away and leave them to their self loathing.

@Parkperson

We all are on the spectrum with regard to narcissism. Without it, we would not have any self worth. www.businessinsider.com/narcissism-vs-narcissist-2018-11?r=US&IR=T Narciss There are many good things about narcissism www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/toxic-relationships/201910/can-narcissism-ever-be-good Labelling anyone who falls foul of you as a narcissist is dangerous. I wonder how many of the posters claiming their partners, mothers, mills, SILs are narcissists really know if they have a diagnosis. I suspect many labelled as 'narcs' on MN are just unpleasant people.

I think this is a very valid and interesting point There is a line between achieving and trampling or destroying others to get there Also in the world of business or politics or relationships the qualities that are needed don’t translate as clearly to the very intimidate and personal settings that many people sadly do experience narcissistic abuse.

Also I think that most people who have encountered and tried to extricate themselves form a narcissist have a narrative and experience that sits more with a victim as opposed to someone having fallen foul of them.

But yes I don’t entirely disagree with these observations.

Having said that..... I have met many unpleasant people in my life
I have met one and known one narcissist.
He makes the unpleasant people look like the Waltons.