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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Why do you believe?

179 replies

Frenchy100 · 15/02/2019 18:06

This is a genuine question. I'm not wanting to be argumentative or anything, am genuinely interested.

It fascinates me, people believing in a god, I struggle to get my head around how/why people would believe in one.

How do you reconcile the belief in a god with all the horrendous things that happen in this world eg murder, rape of kids etc? I always hear religious say that's just because people have free will. But if god is this almighty being that can basically do anything does that mean he 'sits back' and watches those things happen and does nothing?

As I said I am genuinely not flame throwing. I have just never been able to get my head round it. Am genuinely interested in what makes people believe in a god?

OP posts:
Lifecraft · 22/02/2019 13:37

It is said that God has created man in his own image. But it maybe that humankind has created God in the image of humankind.

On balance, I would agree that man created god in his own image - jealous, violent, homophobic & sexist.

Lifecraft · 22/02/2019 13:43

On the subject of religion and morals, one wonders how humankind survived long enough to develop religion without some kind of societal moral code. The Israelites wouldn't have survived long enough to even collect the 10 commandments if they'd been stealing from each other, murdering each other and having affairs with each others husbands and wives.

Thou shalt not steal/kill/commit adultery.......well on the whole most people weren't doing those things anyway.

Long before proper society existed, humans were hunter gatherers, living in small groups of 20 or so, moving around in search of food and shelter. They'd kind of figured out that their joint survival would be hampered by internal conflict, so worked together and respected each other, in the best interests of the group as a whole. They had morals.

Skyejuly · 22/02/2019 13:49

Lifecraft. Yes and many of those tribes worshiped the earth as a mother...Our relationship with the earth is often linked to how we also treat women in society.

Personally I do not believe in Heaven or Hell. If I was wrong and I didnt go to heaven for simply 'not believing' then I damn well do not want to go anyway.

I'm pretty sure when we die we just return back to the earth to nourish the earth once more. Just a cycle of death and rebirth. When I accepted live is cyclic not linear it made so much more sense to me.

Also if anything ever birthed the earth, it would have been a woman if we wanted to humanize it.

Lifecraft · 22/02/2019 15:08

@skyjuly.I'm pretty sure when we die we just return back to the earth to nourish the earth once more

"What does Reincarnation mean?"
A guy once asked his friend.
His pal replied, "It happens when
Your life has reached its end.

They comb you hair, and wash you neck,
And clean your fingernails,
And lay you in a padded box
Away from life's travails."

"The box and you goes in a hole,
That's been dug into the ground.
Reincarnation then starts when
You’re planted beneath a mound.

Those clods melt down, just like your box,
And you who is inside.
And then you’re just beginning on
Your transformation ride."

"In a while, the grass'll grow
Upon your rendered mound.
Till some day on your worn out grave
A lonely flower’s found.

And say a horse should wander by
And graze upon this flower
That once was you, but now's become
Your vegetative power."

"The flower that the horse did eat
And with his other feed,
Makes bone, and fat, and muscle
Essential to the steed,

But some is left that he can't use
And so it passes through,
And finally lays upon the ground
This thing, that once was you."

"Then say, by chance, I wander by
And see this upon the ground,
And I ponder, and I wonder at,
This object that I found.

I think of reincarnation,
Of life and death, and such,
And come away concluding: mate,
You ain't changed all that much

Vitalogy · 22/02/2019 15:17

Also if anything ever birthed the earth, it would have been a woman if we wanted to humanize it. That's it. If you had to pick either one.

noego · 22/02/2019 22:25

Reality is what we take to be true.
What we take to be true is what we believe.
What we believe is based upon our perceptions.
What we perceive depends on what we look for.
What we look for depends upon what we think.
What we think depends on what we perceive.
What we perceive determines what we believe.
What we believe determines what we take to be true.
What we take to be true is our reality.

Take a child that has been told Father Christmas is real. They see a person in the red suit in shops, on adverts, in movies, in the grotto, on the TV. They get up Christmas morning and the evidence is there, the mince pie eaten, the glass of milk drank, the carrot half eaten, the stockings filled with goodies............
In the child's eyes it is al perceived, all real, all true, all believed in. And who perpetuates this illusion?

When you wake up, you realise that this world is all illusory.

Namenic · 22/02/2019 22:41

@noego - like why periods??? Massive waste of protein and loss of blood... and just not v nice..

@lifecraft - yeah I can see how morals would have evolved. But why do something coz it makes you feel good? Sometimes we have to endure feeling horrible to obtain a prize (eg endurance race). Maybe it’s about risk reduction and in case we end up being on losing side...

also, wouldn’t the prehistoric groups just find another group to beat up and steal their cave/land/food? Might is right...

Vitalogy · 22/02/2019 23:13

Jesus says that any "laborer" who accepts the invitation to the work in the vineyard (said by Jesus to represent the Kingdom of Heaven), no matter how late in the day, will receive an equal reward with those who have been faithful the longest. I take that as meaning it's never too late to accept God. Whether you've know God for a minute or a lifetime. Everyone is equal in the knowing.

speakout · 23/02/2019 06:57

Long before proper society existed, humans were hunter gatherers, living in small groups of 20 or so, moving around in search of food and shelter. They'd kind of figured out that their joint survival would be hampered by internal conflict, so worked together and respected each other, in the best interests of the group as a whole. They had morals.

Exactly.

And many other animals have worked out that altruism is best for group survival. Look at elephants,, wolves, other higher primates, bees, ants.

Helping each other and observing a " moral " code is best for the group and usually best for the individual. Keeps dpwn agression, inxest, undesirable destructive behaviour,

At best the bible is an observational document- no news at all.
It was not difficult to watch communities that co existed in harmony and work out the reasons why.
And then simply write that down. Ans hey it becomes a "holy" book, telling us how to live our lives.
No shit sherlock.

The 10 commandments are poorly written.
I mean seriously- 5 out of 10 relate to god;s jealoulsy and toddler tantrum type behaviour, one explicity reinforces the idea that women are no more than chattel..
With all the potential injustices and wrong doings he had an opportunity to score more than a 4 out of 10.

Give that task to the average 10 year old and they would score better than god did.

Vitalogy · 23/02/2019 07:50

Have a look into the creation stories of the traditional cultures of the world. The indigenous peoples of Australia for one. All over the world the stories are similar.

Skyejuly · 23/02/2019 07:54

Totally agree Speakout. The whole concept of the Bible and woman born of man (wtf) is crazy.

Skyejuly · 23/02/2019 07:54

Oops I mean Vitalogy

troubleswillbeoutofsight · 23/02/2019 08:02

I believe in the God the Father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit. I believe God gave people free will and is looking down at murders, famine etc with sorrow. When my son was killed, he wasn’t killed by God, that’s ludicrous to think of. He was killed by a human driving badly. I believe God grieved as much as I did

headinhands · 23/02/2019 08:40

Give that task to the average 10 year old and they would score better than god did.

Absolutely. Because the god depicted was a product of a bronze aged tribe.

If we had a new religion now with a god we could actually respect he wouldn't want to be worshipped for starters. He'd be all about lgbt and feminism and inequality. Instead we have the religion being dragged screaming and kicking into the modern day.

Lifecraft · 23/02/2019 10:38

also, wouldn’t the prehistoric groups just find another group to beat up and steal their cave/land/food?

People of different religions slaughter each other, and different groups within the same religion, sunnis & shias, catholics and protestants.

Bottom like, modern religion has no more claim to providing morals than ancient religions or lack of religion.

headinhands · 23/02/2019 10:54

also, wouldn’t the prehistoric groups just find another group to beat up and steal their cave/land/food? Might is right...

Well yes, the bible shows how violent it was. Stephen Pinkers research demonstrates this through the fossil record and illustrates how we are becoming more peaceable. Even when you take into account the wars within the last 100 years we're still ahead of where we were and are much less inclined to kill each other.

Skyejuly · 23/02/2019 11:23

Why did the onset of christianity start some very patriarchal times?

Lifecraft · 24/02/2019 00:06

also, wouldn’t the prehistoric groups just find another group to beat up and steal their cave/land/food? Might is right...

Well yes, the bible shows how violent it was

Can you point me to the chapter in the bible that talks about prehistoric times?

Namenic · 24/02/2019 02:12

I think the one that covers prehistoric times would be Genesis. There is a long oral history tradition in many cultures (eg Iliad). Exodus describes writing (eg 10 commandments) but some think the oral tradition still played a large role during the period.

I interpret parts like creation allegorically. I wonder what prehistoric people would have made of a text describing evolution. Would they interpret it as a justification of competition? Just as I think it would be hard for ancient peoples to understand not having death penalty in the context of not having jails or industrial farming to feed themselves let alone prisoners, I think it would also have been hard for them to understand evolution in the way we do.

Lifecraft · 24/02/2019 09:20

I think the one that covers prehistoric times would be Genesis.

Genesis talks about early man? Hunter gatherers and Neanderthals? I don't think so.

headinhands · 24/02/2019 12:07

I interpret parts like creation allegorically.

Jesus referred to Adam and Eve as literal people. And the flood.

SnowdropsiUnderTrees · 26/02/2019 20:19

I believe Hod created the Big Bang. There was absolutely nothing, then there was enough atoms to create everything in the Universe? What made the Big Bang? To me that was God.
I believe in evolution as does every Christian I know (it tends to be atheists who insist we don't believe in evolution LOL). I don't actually know when the Old Testament was written but it perfectly describes evolution- first God made the planets, then the seas, then plants, then animals then man. Obviously it's not a science text book (it describes why things happened not how) but there is evidence of Jesus outside of the Bible. I believe Jesus existed. He said he was the son of God. He was either lying, mentally ill or telling the truth. I don't think he was lying as he maintained it through torture and crucifixion. He wasn't mentally ill - I have experience of people with delusions and they become more and more chaotic and start to neglect themselves, their illness becomes very evident the more it progresses. That only leaves me with the option that he was telling the truth.
As for bad things happening, I believe God has all of eternity to make it up to us. Yes he could turn us all into little worshiping robots controlling all aspects of our lives but he wants us to choose to love him so he leaves us to our own devices with the resulting bad actions we sometimes choose and inflict on others. He will forgive us though (if we really are genuinely sorry).

SnowdropsiUnderTrees · 26/02/2019 20:57

Christians don't do good in order to go to heaven - no one is good enough to earn their way to heaven - we all do bad things.
God is just and will punish all our wrongs. However he also loves us too much to actually punish us, so he sent his son Jesus to take everyone in the whole worlds punishment. Our wrongs have already been paid off.
Most Christians believe hell is simply not being with God in heaven. You just die and don't love again in heaven. No one knows what happens after you die. I believe we all meet God then (whichever religion or non religion you were on earth) Everyone has the choice to accept or reject this offer and I think some will choose to reject it.
As to people dying in natural disasters. God made a planet that functions perfectly. It is because humans live as we do (on fault lines etc) and because we have messed up the climate that people are suffering so terribly and it's up to us all to try and do what we can to alleviate that.
People say religion causes war but in fact that's rarely true. It's mostly people trying to get more territory that causes war. In the past kings have said it's in the name of religion but it was actually just them wanting more land or riches. If there were no religion there would still be war. Atheist regimes have very poor human rights records.

speakout · 26/02/2019 21:05

SnowdropsiUnderTrees

So what was god's idea making tapewoms? Or the cholera bug?

Skyejuly · 27/02/2019 11:44

I just cant get over the entity being a man. I know some people argue they believe God is gender less etc and they just say he, but that's part of the problem of a patriarchal religion.

Also many festivals were celebrated for thousands of years before Christ. It just seems like a way to try and control the society at the time. Especially when power was giving birth and creating so let's start passing power to sons and call women manipulative and disgusting...

There is so so much natural beauty and it's all cyclical. Life/death/rebirth/seasoms/life stages. We are all so cyclical and that is a feminine energy. I hate that this has all be changed so linear and so regulated.

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