Why do you believe?

[Frenchy100]

This is a genuine question. I'm not wanting to be argumentative or anything, am genuinely interested.

It fascinates me, people believing in a god, I struggle to get my head around how/why people would believe in one.

How do you reconcile the belief in a god with all the horrendous things that happen in this world eg murder, rape of kids etc? I always hear religious say that's just because people have free will. But if god is this almighty being that can basically do anything does that mean he 'sits back' and watches those things happen and does nothing?

As I said I am genuinely not flame throwing. I have just never been able to get my head round it. Am genuinely interested in what makes people believe in a god?

I’m a Christian. I don’t really have all the answers and think the Church has acted v badly in past and present. But among other things Jesus’ pacifism and way of living is attractive to me. I suppose I risk wasting time and money for a big nothing when I die though.

I don’t really understand how atheists can rationally have morality/integrity though. And I have met many atheists that do have a strong moral code. To me - if there is no god/consequence - why not just pretend to be good but screw everyone over. You could say that often co operation is better for everyone or that often cheating will have long term bad consequences, but it doesn’t take away from the fact that if the reward is big enough, you should take it. I guess it’s just as well I’m a Christian rather than a psychopath...

if there is no god/consequence - why not just pretend to be good but screw everyone over. Common sense.

I believe God loves us regardless of our 'worship'.

Yeah but how is it love if he sends people to hell for all eternity? You don’t do that to people you love. Christians say Gods love is unconditional but that’s bullshit. ‘Love me back in the way that I tell you to and worship me, else I will have you tortured forever’. God seems more like an abusive boyfriend that a loving creator of the universe.

I was brought up in a Christian household but it never felt right to me. I hated going to church every week, the people were all nice enough, it was just so boring and all the talk of hell scared me. And the Bible, again extremely boring, contradictory and irrelevant.

Being told we are sheep and born with sin, we need to be forgiven and to be saved. It just fills people with guilt and shame.

Once I hit adulthood I realised how crazy it all was and moved away from it. I follow my own personal belief system and think for myself and will encourage my DCs to do the same.

I don’t really understand how atheists can rationally have morality/integrity though. And I have met many atheists that do have a strong moral code. To me - if there is no god/consequence - why not just pretend to be good but screw everyone over

The fact that you need to be told to be a good person is quite worrying. The fact that you are good because you think you will be rewarded for it is also quite worrying.

I am a good person, I know right from wrong, I don’t intentionally hurt other people. I live this way because I’m a decent human being and I take responsibility for my actions. I don’t need a reward or the fear of eternal damnation to make me act this way.

how is it love if he sends people to hell for all eternity? You don’t do that to people you love. Christians say Gods love is unconditional but that’s bullshit. ‘Love me back in the way that I tell you to and worship me, else I will have you tortured forever

And again, yes, that's gross. And it's not what I believe. I'm heavily influenced by what most people call 'Eastern Orthodoxy', and in Orthodox theology, there isn't the whole punishment theme. It's much more about healing and reconciliation.

So, as I understand it, God is entirely loving and that does not stop at any point. We can respond positively, and thus our experience of that love is a wholly positive thing. Or we can reject it and refuse it, all the way into eternity, and I can imagine that if you're in eternity with a being you hate, you're not going to enjoy it. But that's not the same as sending someone to hell as per traditional imagery.

@Namenic

Have you ever heard of empathy? If the only reason you don't 'screw everyone over' is because you're scared of going to hell, that says way more about you than it does about anyone else.

Vitalogy - if you read the thread in the spirit it has been written no-one is arguing. It has been an interesting discussion with everyone being respectful of other people's view. No has argued or mentioned arguing......other than you.

If you are 'tied of the same old threads' then just don't join in and move on, it is that easy. This may have been discussed before but maybe not by the people involved in this discussion.

Namenic - I really struggle with some of the things you say. 'If there is no god/consequence...why not just screw everyone over?!' I don't screw everyone over as I don't want to, I am a decent human being, I treat people with kindness, I no right from wrong. I don't need there to be 'no consequence' (in effect a reward) to 'not screw people over.'

Are you saying that people that aren't Christians are psychopaths? That sounds like a very worrying way of thinking.

Naboo you have summed up exactly how I feel

@NabooThatsWho - Is there a reason for morality or does it just exist? Is it aribitrary? What if people’s morality differs?

For me morality is based on God and how He wants us to interact with Him, others and the world. We have concepts of good and bad but our view is not perfect. In the Scriptures we have pictures of hell. To me it does sit uneasily with a loving God, but one view is that hell is the absence of God. The people who go there would choose to as despite God being revealed, they would still cling to their own concepts of good and bad. I think that is what pride is and why it is considered bad.

@Frenchy100 and @Naboo - I don’t think most Christians think this (I’m sure they aren’t as screwed up as I am)! I am just a skeptic and rationalist and find it hard to see a reason for morality. Maybe a bit like you find it hard for you to think about creation.

PS - I’m v grateful that I’ve met very kind and moral atheists (and Christians and people of lots of different religions). I guess I just find it a bit illogical. There’s no reason for logic though... just a human invention that might have flaws...

To me - if there is no god/consequence - why not just pretend to be good but screw everyone over

I don't screw people over because I know what it feels like to be screwed over. It feels shit and I don't like to imagine other people feeling that

if you read the thread in the spirit it has been written no-one is arguing Whatever the spirit is, it's going around in circles

Yeah but how is it love if he sends people to hell for all eternity? It doesn't mean the afterlife, it means in the here and now.

"Why this is hell nor am I out of it"
(Marlowe - Dr Faustus)

RelaisBlu Did he sell his soul?

Yes he makes a pact with the devil - for 24 years of knowledge & power he will give his soul to Lucifer at the end.

The above quotation comes early in the play when he conjures up the devil Mephistophilis (one of the fallen angels) - it continues:

"Thinkst thou that I who saw the face of God
And tasted the eternal joys of heaven
Am not tormented by ten thousand hells
In being deprived of everlasting bliss?
Oh Faustus, leave these frivolous demands
Which strike a terror to my fainting soul"

The poetry is wonderful (I hope I've remembered it correctly)

I don’t really understand how atheists can rationally have morality/integrity though. And I have met many atheists that do have a strong moral code. To me - if there is no god/consequence - why not just pretend to be good but screw everyone over

Because when I do good things, it makes me feel good. When I do bad things I feel bad. And I'd rather feel good than bad.

On the subject of Pascall's wager, the flaw in this thinking is that there're are lots of gods, about 2000, and they are all universally jealous. I think if god exists, I think he'll be more angry with someone who believes in the wrong one compare to someone who doesn't believe at all.

Most women would be sad if their husband left them and moved into a bedsit, but furious if he left and moved in with someone else!!!!

So given you've only got a 1 in 2000 chance of picking the right god, the sensible choice is to not believe in any.

God (any god) only exists in perception. Once you realise that everything exists in perception and that which observes perception is the absolute, then you have discovered God.

Yeah I was always taught we needed religion to keep us safe and teach us right from wrong etc etc ... but being away from the religion I have learnt that most people can govern their own morality, they don't need told to be good or else. It's actually really sad if you think of it.

People are perfectly able to be good without anyone telling them so, in fact, and I can only speak of my own old religion, I think people outside of that generally more honest. There is no act to look like a good religious person, people are less complicated as they don't have a persona to keep up. I've gone out with a load of people from my old religion and they work out ways of getting the best deals, like saying your a student as the cinema and collecting the tickets from the point so you don't get asked, whereas i personally consider that dishonest.

there're are lots of gods, about 2000, and they are all universally jealous

There are far more than 2000 gods and more still when you add in all the older gods who's names are forgotten. More still depending on how you actually define a deity.

There is only one god who is notorious for being a jealous one! Some of the rest may not get on too well with each other but then that is true for most of us.

I am atheist. I was raised catholic by a very god fearing mum and a very mum fearing father. I was raised with catholic guilt and fear and will never understand why my parents put me and my siblings through that. Science is my belief and I do not believe there is a god. I am not raising my children to believe there is a god and I am not raising my children to believe they were born neither with sin or will die with sin. I do not ever agree with religion. All it causes is war and negativity. Why make people feel guilty for living their lives? WHy make them feel that they need to suppress themselves for their time on earth on the offchance that they will earn some type of place in this realm deemed 'heaven'. Why make them fear living their lives as best they want to by threatening them with a realm known as hell? I would rather live my life and have my children live their lives on this planet with happiness and not fear. I do good things, I live my life in a good way but that has nothing to do with anyone bar me wanting to live my own best life and show my kids THEIR best lives. I am baffled by the belief that there is a god of any sort.

Thank you RelaisBlu

So given you've only got a 1 in 2000 chance of picking the right god, the sensible choice is to not believe in any. Or, know that they're all talking about the same one or Thing.

This Thing or God is within all of us and outside of us, it's everywhere and every thing. Putting this one God on a pedestal, separate from us is the lie/misinterpretation that's been told. The Bible has lots of truths in it amongst the non truths. One of them being from psalm 82 6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’

Babdoc. I was really interested in your post - moving from Dawkins type atheist to Christian.
Can you say whether you are a happier person as a Christian ? Please don't feel you have to answer if you don't want to.

I am not religious but I like the humanist way of thinking.

I’m good and kind to people as that in itself is reward enough for me. When you do a good deed it makes me feel amazing inside and has the same effect on others... I’m not thinking of the reward I’ll get. The way it makes me feel is reward in itself. When I die I’ll return to the earth and give life to new things. I actually like to think that my life will end and that will be that. It makes me try to squeeze in lots of fun and happy times and spend as much time as I can with those I love, because one day we won’t be together.

I come from a medical/scientific background and I believe religion is a collection of stories made up before we could explain things with science. I can understand why thousands of years ago the unenlightened believed these stories, but now we have science to explain these things. Practically the only thing we don’t have scientific proof of is god or the afterlife.

Religion was also a way of controlling the masses and was and still is to some extent (all be it in a more covert way) particularly oppressive to women. I noticed at my local church that on the teas rota there wasn’t a single male on the list and on the time table of events there was a “male pub social” listed.

My partner and I have been together for 22 happy years - never married... and we have three happy, well educated, good and caring children. Yet my relationship and family would be frowned upon upon by many religions. Why is that and how can that be ok?