Why do you believe?

[Frenchy100]

This is a genuine question. I'm not wanting to be argumentative or anything, am genuinely interested.

It fascinates me, people believing in a god, I struggle to get my head around how/why people would believe in one.

How do you reconcile the belief in a god with all the horrendous things that happen in this world eg murder, rape of kids etc? I always hear religious say that's just because people have free will. But if god is this almighty being that can basically do anything does that mean he 'sits back' and watches those things happen and does nothing?

As I said I am genuinely not flame throwing. I have just never been able to get my head round it. Am genuinely interested in what makes people believe in a god?

The problem I have with it is not that bad things happen per se, but the fact that when bad things happen those with a faith will tell you that it’s down to free will and so on. yet when good things happen it’s hallelujah praise the lord. In my opinion you can’t have it both ways. Either God is responsible for the good in which case he’s responsible for the bad as well, or he isn’t responsible for any of it. You can’t have it both ways.

Also, as a parent I struggle to think of some of the perceived actions and demands from god as being those of a loving parent figure. Certainly on earth no child would be encouraged to persist with a relationship with the kind of parent whose love is dependent on how much you worship them, so why should it be different for a spiritual one? In short, even if there was a God, why would anyone want to worship that?

@mummyhaschangedhername

Religions are rules and doctrines presided over by people. A belief in God doesn't require adherence to a named religion.

@Frenchy100 I do agree with you. Like I say I'm not religious anymore but i can explain things from my mindset of the time. One of my best friends lost a child, and I have several other friends that have also. I can't think of anything worse.

Like I say, uniquely I think, form my previously religious belief is that this was just "act two" in the story of life. So while someone, even a child, might day in this mortal existence, this isn't the end, our story continues into the next life. Families can be together forever, is what is taught, although aspects of this I have never truly understood. But essentially we were taught that some of the most valiant of us die young because they had already proven themselves in the previous life. That the benefit of this life was just the possession of a mortal body. That's obviously says nothing of the suffering of the family for the loss of a child. But it does suck people into the idea that they will be reunited and will gave further opportunity to raise the child in another life. Which doesn't really make much sense does it but I think you do just cling onto the things that make sense or seem like miracles and let go of the things that don't.

loverofkittens - summed it perfectly and my view excatly. Everything good is 'thanks to god' and 'prayers have been answered' But I can guarantee if I prayed every night for the rest of my life for there to be no more murders in the world he wouldn't answer those prayers (or would that be because he knows I'm a fake? )

You can't have it both ways

And your second point is excellent too. In fact, the first of the ten commandments is pretty narcissistic no?

I was raised a Christian but there are things I really like about other religions I like the reincarnation in Hinduism, the self improvement and respect for the environment and others in Buddhism. I think there are despite any discussion about a deity things in most religions that try to provide a moral code on how to live life well. How to be a better person. Whether that leads to a utopian afterlife nobody here can answer with 100% certainty. But I do think that there are aspects that we can all use in our lives.
Taking the radical argument but if we whole heartedly followed those instructions (Di no harm, be kind, treat each other well, don’t steal, don’t kill etc) would there be the misery that there is in this world? Probably not.
So maybe there was a ‘designer’ maybe he left the instructions and maybe we aren’t listening?

Thanks mummyhaschanged I understand what you are saying and very much agree with your last sentence. I think that religion for many people is clinging onto something more palatable than the plain horrible facts of the tragedy that has happened

the kind of parent whose love is dependent on how much you worship them

I'm getting distracted with some stuff out here in RL, but if I can just respond to this - I completely agree with this comment, that I wouldn't see the point in a relationship with a God who only loved if He was worshipped. So it's probably relevant that I don't believe that God is like that - I believe God loves us regardless of our 'worship'.

@ReaganSomerset

So by that idea, just believing in a being will give you eternal life? I understand some religions teach mercy, but it just seems like a recipe for disaster, if belief in this god doesn't make you a better person than what's the point. You could effectively be the problem(rapist, serial killer etc) and still have that belief.

I think the idea is that the good is God's doing, the bad is man's doing. So disease and death, if you're going down the biblical route, is because Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge despite being told not to. Murder is man's doing. Praise God if anything good happens because all good comes from God. If something bad was happening and has now been alleviated, thank God for interceding.

WRT the father figure thing, again from a biblical perspective, fathers used to have different roles and parents did have more control. In Ancient China, parents were perfectly within their rights to have their sons castrated, for example. To modern thinking, the God of the Bible shows very extreme parenting. To those alive at the time of the Bible, perhaps not so much. It's an old book.

@mummyhaschangedhername Pascal's suggestion was that people should live as if there is a God. I think the idea is that if you believe in God you try to behave in a way you think will please Him. Pascal was coming at it from a Christian perspective (I think) but most religions have similar basic tenets. I don't think any of them advocate rape and serial murder.

I’m a Christian because I had a direct encounter with the presence of God, after spending 35 years as a rabid atheist. I was as scornful as Dawkins, and shudder now when I look back on what an arrogant knob I used to be!
I don’t claim to have all the answers, but I know that I can trust God implicitly. My contact with Him showed me that He is love incarnate.
To try and answer some of the queries on here -
God doesn’t love conditionally, demanding your worship before He gives anything back.
Quite the reverse - He suffered torture and death on a cross rather than lift a hand against his torturers. As the baptism service says “We love God because He first loved us”.

The question about free will, and why God doesn’t intervene to stop murders and violence: yes, of course he could have created us as robots, incapable of sin, programmed to just do good deeds all the time.
But He is our heavenly parent. He wants his children to be free, to choose and learn and grow.
How many of you would swap your naughty toddlers or stroppy teenagers for a doll or a robot that always behaved and repeated “I love you mummy” in its mechanical voice? I bet none of you! Because it would be a meaningless, lifeless relationship. God doesn’t want that with us, either.
Some of you feel that, because some people die young, there can’t be a God, or God is cruel and doesn’t care. That only makes sense if you think our time on Earth is all we have, that there is no afterlife.
If you believe that we are set free from space and time after death, and are with God for eternity, then how long or short our earthly life is becomes less important.
My own much loved DH died young, and of course I grieve for him, and feel sad that he didn’t see our babies grow up. But I know we will be reunited in heaven, and forever.
Finally, God doesn’t force a relationship on anyone. He offers His love and eternal life freely - it’s entirely up to each of us whether we respond and accept Him, or reject Him.

babdoc - how can you KNOW that you will be reunited in heaven (not being disrespectful at all to the early death of your DH)

I guess in the large scheme of things, if you believe, than even those who suffered horrendous things, it's just part of the mortal experience. That it doesn't matter if you die as death is just the interval to the next act. I hope I'm making sense. Yes, you do make sense

It does get tiresome on these threads where it's mostly the religious and atheists arguing the same old arguments. Can't we move on a bit.

Mostly because there isn't just one religion, so how do you pick the "right" one? You don't have to pick one at all. Most of the religions have the truths in them. Some have been corrupted by the agendas of humans man So pick the things that resonate with you and that feel right. and make sense.Toss the rest aside. Don't get bogged down with the dogma of them.

Babdoc your post reminds me of my old dentist who once described having a direct experience with NO God!! He was seriously ill a few years before he retired and claimed he had an out-of-body experience which took him to The Beyond before the medics brought him back and that he had seen there was nothing at all....
All this of course whilst he was examining my mouth and I was unable to answer - I imagined him imparting this to patient after patient, none of them able to respond

If you found a watch on the beach you wonder who put it there,

I've seen watches being made. I've never seen a planet made by a creator to assume it was when I see one.

I'm an ex Christian. Believed from school (religious assemblies). Went to church on and off until about 30 and then slowly changed my mind. The way I see it I believed good people believed in Jesus and I guess I wanted to be good.

Pascal argued that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God because you've everything to gain if you're right and nothing to lose if you're wrong

That works if there's one god, but there's roughly 2000 religions so you're better off not believing any of them and then arguing your point with the god when you meet it. That you were unsure because of lack of evidence and thought it best to hold off. Surely an intelligent god would appreciate that. And appreciate it a lot more than someone saying they believed it out of fear just to avoid being told off 🥴

But back to the question, essentially the letting mortals suffer, I guess it comes from a place of knowing better, god knows that all experiences are for our benefit even painful ones, I guess I would have likened it to vaccines (not wanting to start a debate on that) but that we vaccinate our kids, even though it's horrible and painful and can even make them ill for days, but because we believe that there are benefits to doing so,

So these charities that seek to alleviate suffering, aren't they screwing things up? So gods organised a child to starve to death in the third world because it means they'll have developed some understanding, but then some charity rocks up and feeds them? Also we know from data that adverse experiences in childhood cause life long difficulties and as such we legislate to minimise this. Shouldn't we be letting god get on with his plans? Like healthcare, isn't that messing up his system. For all I know I was supposed to contract cancer as a child from an asbestos roof but the government outlawed asbestos so I'm still alive and as such my parents didn't get to learn that vital lesson?

That works if there's one god Bemuses me this thinking. Humans will interpret this Thing in all sorts of ways. Why the need to divide it up like that.

headinhands I think you're looking at it and focusing on the individual lives. If we are here countless numbers of times, why would we repeatedly choose or be given a form that is 'perfect'. Wouldn't We or It mix it up a bit.

My religion is Kindness. That's it - end of.

Causes no wars, terrorism, guilt. In my book it is infinitely preferable to any existing religion.

I don't think any of them advocate rape and serial murder - not so sure about that!! Such actions have been the stuff of religions for millennia.

Well said Mishappening