Why do you believe?

[Frenchy100]

This is a genuine question. I'm not wanting to be argumentative or anything, am genuinely interested.

It fascinates me, people believing in a god, I struggle to get my head around how/why people would believe in one.

How do you reconcile the belief in a god with all the horrendous things that happen in this world eg murder, rape of kids etc? I always hear religious say that's just because people have free will. But if god is this almighty being that can basically do anything does that mean he 'sits back' and watches those things happen and does nothing?

As I said I am genuinely not flame throwing. I have just never been able to get my head round it. Am genuinely interested in what makes people believe in a god?

I can understand why thousands of years ago the unenlightened believed these stories Knock the 'un' off and you'd be closer to the mark.

Practically the only thing we don’t have scientific proof of is god or the afterlife. Science only goes so far then comes god/source/It/Thing.

Coldonitsway There's a difference between religion and spirituality for want of a better word, sometimes religion is a gateway to the Other, sometimes it's a hinderance.

Coldonitsway - really good post. I've never really thought too much about why people believed thousands of years ago but what you say makes a lot of sense. We are so much more advanced these days and in a position to explain why things happen scientifically.

I too believe religion is a collection of stories and it really does fascinate me why adults believe in it. I genuinely think many people people in it just because it brings comfort, just in the same way believing in fate/karma does, when something bad happens it is OK because karma will take care of it.

When horrendous things happen to people those that believe get a lot of comfort from their faith. And to be honest, even though I don't believe, if that gets them through very difficult times then who cares whether there actually is a god or not!

People are entitled to their views, (as long as they don’t inflict them me or my children) and if it brings them comfort during tough times then great. But I deal with tough times with rational thinking and a proactive approach.

I’m happy for my children to learn about all religions but we make it clear that these are stories which some people choose to believe.

coldonitsway - it is like listening to myself, we think identically!

I have no problem at all with whatever people want to believe, as long as they don't inflict it on others. I just really struggle to understand what makes people belief , hence the thread.

The difference I have found in practice is that whilst I respect other views and completely agree that believers' views are just as valid as my views, it isn't often the case the other way round. That is my experience anyway.

The fact that I don't believe is enough for me. I don't need to try and convert others to my way of thinking, unlike evangelists. Why do they need to? And I think that is the biggest annoyance for non-believers. They only have a problem with believers when they start trying to force their view onto others. Many of them don't seem able to accept that non-believers views are just as valid as theirs. Why is that?

I can understand why thousands of years ago the unenlightened believed these stories

Knock the 'un' off and you'd be closer to the mark.

vit can you explain why you feel the statement: I can understand why thousands of years ago the enlightened believed these stories is nearer the truth?

@headinhands - I'd like tan explanation too.

@Namenic

If you weren't religious, would you fuck everyone over?

If you weren't religious, would you fuck everyone over?

The data on the psychology of cheating is fascinating if you haven't read it.

I assume they weren't a psycho before they became a Christian.

Wrt evangelism, some people are just pushy sods. But a lot of people engage in sharing about their faith, not from a desire to control, but just as you might share about a deal on something at the supermarket, or a telly programme you really enjoyed. It's meant to be a positive thing for others.

Like, I've posted on this thread, as honestly as I always try to be, and my purpose was not to 'convert' anyone, but just to share the reasons why my faith makes me tick. If someone reads it and gets an understanding of me, that's great. If someone reads it and thinks I'm a loon, then fair enough. If someone reads it and is helped to understand something about their own views, and finds a sense of peace, so much the better.

Integrity is really important to me. I'm not into bait and switch, ticking off converts stuff.

I believe because it feels right inside. I don't have another reason. It just feels right for me. I'm not doing anyone any harm in my belief, it just is what it is.

Being in church calms my soul. The ritual of it, the routine of it, the idea that people have sat in this place doing the same things for centuries is really calming. I find the words of the old hymns really comforting and reassuring. Our minister is open minded, his sermons always give me something to think about, about how I want to live my life, so often they are so incredibly relevant to something that is worrying me. Is that God at work or coincidence? I don't know and I don't really care one way or the other. I'll take what I'm given.
So maybe I believe in the ritual of religion more than in religion itself. Would I die for my religion? No. Do I believe in heaven? That's a weird one. The rational part of me knows there is not another world up there full of happy dead people waiting to welcome me but there is another part of me that absolutely believes it to be true. I find great comfort in the idea that the people I have loved are waiting for me and my children. I know we will all be ok. If I'm believing in a fairy tale well so be it. By the time I realise I'm wrong I will be dead anyway.

I'm not naive, I know terrible things have happened in the name of religion, and not all just in the dim and distant past. I know religion can be exclusive rather than inclusive, I know religion can be judgemental. I am fortunate to have found a church where those things are categorically not true. I am very lucky.

All my posts on these philosophy/religion threads are about a truth I believe in and that makes total sense to me. I just give my views, if anyone is interested in listening then great, if not then that's ok too.

I've made a good few posts on this thread with information in that no one has discussed, again that's fine. The videos for one will basically tell you most of what you need to know. Take it in and use it or dismiss it. You have free will, do what you want with it.

My life has changed beyond comprehension for the better since I had my realisation.

If it's important to you you'll do something about it, if not then fine, that's not the game you're playing this time. Best wishes to you in what ever you do and how you live your lives.

Jus to add, if you're interested, read about the traditional cultures of the world. The Eastern philosophies. A good starting point at least.

Vitalogy I did take the time to watch the videos you posted.

When you say 'if it is important to you you'll do something about it' what do you mean exactly? I'm not following. Am also not playing any games

knitwit thanks for that.

Whilst I am not a believer I can totally appreciate what you are saying. There are other things in life that I believe in and. same as you, can't really explain why other than it just feels right.

What I mean by 'if it's important to you', to find the truth of who we truly are and what this world and universe is.

What did you make of the videos?

I found them very thought provoking actually. I have to admit though I did find them quite difficult to follow but that's just me being a bit dim.

It does fascinate me this type of thing. Like I mentioned earlier, if I think about things to deeply like where we came from, space, the universe it ends up rme out slightly!

It's all to 'vast' to comprehend.

freaking me out slightly that should have said. sorry

Yes, I know what you mean about the freaking out, In fact I used to stop myself thinking about it as it got too much.

Also the hard to follow bit, perfectly understandable as well. Once you have the knowledge it all becomes clear. See how you get on with the other things I mentioned early, traditional cultures, Eastern philosophies. Also you don't have to go searching for anything if you don't feel like it. Observe this life, live, love, learn and be happy if you can, that's what it's all about anyway. Good luck.

Thanks for starting this discussion Frenchy, it's so interesting to read the different thoughtful responses.

I'm very much with @FloralBunting (I usually am, to be fair!) - I'm a Christian. I think the question of suffering is one we're never going to find a black and white answer for, and I ask the questions you ask. Yet within my own loved experience of faith I've found that looking to God in my own suffering has brought freedom and joy even in the depths of it. I've been sick all my life, struggling with a painful progressive disease, so I was that child in pain God didn't come and heal. I can't answer that question (and many biblical writers asked the question, which I find reassuring - I find that being real before God about all this is liberating and helpful, and not having to wear a mask of pretence is a relief.)

What I find interesting when we ask all these questions about suffering is where we get the idea of good and bad from. Why do we know - so innately and universally - that the abuse of a child is wrong? Why do we know rape is so utterly wrong? I believe we know these moral absolutes because there is a God of moral absolutes. Therefore all humanity unite in this knowledge - I certainly don't go for any diving line between atheists and people of faith - there is no 'good' which is somehow 'more good' because someone is a Christian. People of all faiths and none can do wonderful things - and I believe that is because we are made in the image of one who is good, and evil is possible because there is always the flip side to good. We are all capable of good and evil, and we all (or most) have the ability to understand these absolutes and the shades of grey in between, when applicable.

So we only understand 'suffering' in the light of an innate understanding of what is good and what is not. For me, the existence of a loving God is still possible alongside suffering, because of the good we see in so many people, situations, beauty, art, music etc. If we didn't understand the evil, we wouldn't be able to appreciate the heights, the joy, the beauty.

This is all a bit philosophical and doesn't necessarily speak to the person acutely suffering. For me, in my pain, I have found the Christian narrative to be unprecedented in its power because of how Jesus got straight into the mess of humanity and entered into our pain. Unlike any other religion, Christianity is not about a God who stands aloof, watching his ant-farm struggle and suffer, detached from us and unemotionally studying us. Instead it's about a God who loves with passion and no conditions, a God who gets into the middle of it all and shares our pain. For me, this takes my faith out of the realm of the theoretical and into the experiential - into something which transforms me and frees me.

I'm convinced there is robust evidence for the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, and that this is what makes all the difference, because this is about events in history, so not comparable with the 2000+ gods. And more than that, God has entered into my own experience in tangible and profound ways. Far from being oppressed and repressed by faith, as a woman I experience liberation in the knowledge that I'm a loved daughter of God.

I agree so much crap has been done by the religious. And I hate it. But that doesn't negate the reality of God, for me, and what Jesus did.

Sorry - I've wittered on!

Apologies for typos. Really should proof read

Why do we know - so innately and universally - that the abuse of a child is wrong?

Actually some people don't. Our idea of child abuse is developing all the time. It wasn't so long ago children were expected to work.

If we didn't understand the evil, we wouldn't be able to appreciate the heights, the joy, the beauty. Well said.

Christ, a symbol of self - Carl Jung

Hello headinhands! Its been a while. Hope you're well.

Certainly various societies/civilisations have squashed that innate sense of morality for their own purposes over the years, but that doesn't mean it's not there or that we have somehow evolved further now. I'm pretty sure that's not the case when we look at some more recent history and some of the atrocities we see around the world today.