Guidance sought

[MillieMallard]

Have namechanged. I’m a Catholic and am active in my church. I go to Mass regularly. I abide by the teachings. I have been listening to faith leaders from my own and other denominations and faiths online for some time now. I also have friends with other faiths, Christian denominations and general outlooks.

I need to talk to someone because I need to discuss some faith questions but I can’t talk to my priest. The reason for this is that I know him very well which sounds contradictory but as he is embroiled in my whole life, I need neutrality. Also, he is always so busy that I don’t want to be an inconvenience. There’s lots more to this but I don’t want to out myself. A key area though is that my friend’s partner is a leader in another faith and believes I am not saved because I am Catholic. I’ve listened to information from so many avenues that I’ve been overloaded in my quest for an answer and just would like someone neutral with some theological knowledge to talk to. Any ideas? Also I haven’t come in here to be slated by atheists as seems to happen on so many other forums. Please help with any useful suggestions. I feel desperate. I just don’t know where to turn.

Everyone has a belief system, from as simple as 'I will live until I die', to complex modes of living which can include multiple rituals, self loathing, fear, subjugation of others, aggression, tribal allegiances. Whilst introspection is not a bad thing, attributing deep sub conscious feelings to happenings in the real world in my view is not a huge distance from mental illness - it's where the more outlandish cults thrive. Investigating where you seem to fit in a complex world is a good thing, but inventing things or imaginings to make them exist doesn't cut it in my world. Each to their own, of course.

attributing deep sub conscious feelings to happenings in the real world in my view is not a huge distance from mental illness - it's where the more outlandish cults thrive. Investigating where you seem to fit in a complex world is a good thing, but inventing things or imaginings to make them exist doesn't cut it in my world.

Jason If that is your attempt at a critique over some of the things I have said in my posts, why don't you just come right out and say it?

For what it's worth, I think this statement is incredibly naive. If you don't think the way you think affects the way you act or that every thing you do affects the world around you, then what sort of magic bubble are you living in? Even actions which occur automatically, without conscious thought, are governed by the subconscious which can be informed by the your patterns of thinking. Our brains are plastic. The way we think has been shown to affect brain chemistry and in turn structure. Now tell me why you think thought cannot manifest into the physical world?

I think I have a definition of thought that is separate from imagination, or at least imagination is a subset of all thought. I concede that things like thought experiments can open gateways to new discoveries - a lot of theoretical physics is only proven later by experiments, but without the original thoughts there would likely have been no experiments. My issue is that the foundations of these scientific imaginative thinking is to develop and broaden existing knowledge, unlike most spiritual teachings which seem to begin with an acceptance that there has to be something 'other' in the first place, which I don't accept. Perhaps I need a life event or happening which would change my view; perhaps I don't yearn enough for something 'other' in my life.

I wasn't having a dig at your comments, more a general observation of how the recruiting of vulnerable people by religion and cults has been around for a long time, and promising 'solutions' to troubled minds is a form of conditioning that should never be condoned.
You've made me think, so thank you.

I wasn't having a dig at your comments, more a general observation of how the recruiting of vulnerable people by religion and cults has been around for a long time, and promising 'solutions' to troubled minds is a form of conditioning that should never be condoned.

And scientific practice is never exploitative?

Maybe, but doesn't make my point less valid.

My point is, why disrespect religion but not the scientific method? Both have spurred people on to do good yet both have been mixed up with serious corruption and exploitation.

I would say people that can use either systems to progress their own exploitative ends, if they are that way inclined.

I agree, completely

how the recruiting of vulnerable people by religion and cults has been around for a long time, and promising 'solutions' to troubled minds is a form of conditioning that should never be condoned. I agree, it's awful.

How the recruiting of vulnerable people by religion and cults has been around for a long time, and promising 'solutions' to troubled minds is a form of conditioning that should never be condoned. I agree, it's awful.

People are conditioned all the time, to believe one thing or another.

In the church where I go I don’t see all these vulnerable recruited people- quite the opposite really, I find a lot of religious people are quite deep thinkers, very capable of thinking for themselves.
I think you are perhaps you are blowing this “problem” of all these brainwashed vulnerable people out of proportion to support your world view that religion is harmful.

@Jason118

how the recruiting of vulnerable people by religion and cults has been around for a long time, and promising 'solutions' to troubled minds is a form of conditioning that should never be condoned

That's a huge generalisation. But you could apply it to democracy, capitalism, marriage, fascism, communism, education..............need I go on?
So, I would suggest that you enquire into what has caused these minds to be troubled in the first place and why they seek to be free of those troubled minds. Through spirituality or therapy.

As for the 'other' you refer to in PP, scientists are trying understand and investigate what thisother might be,
An example of that would be the Higgs bosun particle. Also known as the God particle. From the experiments at the LHC in Geneva by CERN. Which re-created the big bang.
Science is beginning to work this out and produce evidence that other exists.
So it sort of went like this. Spiritual peeps knowing of this other and then science applying itself to finding out whether it was true or not.
So t he scientists are producing the evidence of something the ancient spiritual teachers have known for thousands of years.

Which ever way you look at it other came first.

Disagree, I would replace your use of 'other' with the starting point of what is observed (real). Seeking understanding for gaps in the observed world does not require the invention of 'other' as a thing. It's just a space to be filled with acquired knowledge, not imagined as a thing.

@Jason118

My issue is that the foundations of these scientific imaginative thinking is to develop and broaden existing knowledge, unlike most spiritual teachings which seem to begin with an acceptance that there has to be something 'other' in the first place, which I don't accept

Well I do accept something other and was trying to show how scientific experimentation that there has to be something other is being proven.

Disagree, I would replace your use of 'other' with the starting point of what is observed (real). Seeking understanding for gaps in the observed world does not require the invention of 'other' as a thing. It's just a space to be filled with acquired knowledge, not imagined as a thing.

Jason about 95% if the universe is made up of matter that scientists will say they don’t know what it is, or can’t even comprehend it.
Your “real” is limited by what you can perceive- and that is not very much as a human, our perception is poor- we can’t even hear or smell as well as a dog can.
What i sense- smell, feel, see, hear, taste is just the interpretation of information by my brain. It’s not “real”. For instance you hear a sound, it’s a wave- but without someone to hear it it doesn’t exist. You see a colour- it’s not real- it’s your brain deciding how to process a wavelength. It’s all observer dependent. You are central to your own experience of reality, but your reality is certainly not all there is out there.
If you only allow room for the “real”, (the perceivable) your missing the reality that we know exists, but that we just don’t see.
Theres a quote- “True wisdom is knowing that you know nothing”.

Not knowing everything is not an excuse to invent things to make up for it.

What you say is real,- you said was observable, but most of what is real is actually not observable or perceivable.
I believe in Jesus, I believe him when he said this world is perishable, it’s passing away- what is left will be imperishable. Theres more to this life than meets the eye.
I believe what we think is our reality is far from the actual truth of our existence.
I believe he isn’t “made up” but revealed to us and described in the gospel. I know you don’t believe and I’m not trying to convince you, but at the very least maybe you should keep an open mind since we know that we are essentially blind to most of the universe.

I have an open mind - what you say may be true, but belief for the sake of some sort of explanation, in my opinion is vacuous.

I have an open mind - what you say may be true, but belief for the sake of some sort of explanation, in my opinion is vacuous.

Jason, that is not why I believe. My faith is experiential. I just believe, hope for the things I believe in and put faith in what I believe.

Hebrews 11:11*, says
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

It is a prophetic statement. What I mean by that is that I have learnt to trust my faith experientially. The key is realising the belief and faith comes before the hoped for, expected, outcome.

but belief for the sake of some sort of explanation, in my opinion is vacuous.

And in life we often use 'working hypotheses' in order to measure, define and refine without knowing the fine detail of exactly how the hypotheses might work.

And one of the most funny things, is that, after making faith based decisions when people have asked for more scientific justification for those decisions the evidence has just been there at my disposal. I liken it to the phenomenon of some people being far quicker at calculus than computers.

If one has an opinion about something then it follows that one will make a judgement. That judgement will become their reality until they receive evidence to the contrary.
What happens if one doesn't have an opinion and make judgments?

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumoured by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

– Gautama Buddha

As was stated up thread, 'perhaps this life existence is to dissolve the untrue'

Or as Socrates said. 'A life unexamined is not worth living' meaning self introspection to 'know thyself'

In my experience we are spiritual beings having a human existence. In this world, but not of this world.

Can that experience be articulated? Not really. Can it be imagined? No. Is it experienced? Most definitely.

But noego I don't believe because of what other people have said, I either just believe or I don't. Like you said upthread, your Divinity was reaching out to Divinity, I believe Divinity (which can be found in different places) has an affinity with Divinity.

@leafbud

I believe Divinity (which can be found in different places) has an affinity with Divinity

I agree. One has only to look and to experience it. It is that simple!!

I believe Divinity (which can be found in different places) has an affinity with Divinity

I thought I was getting somewhere - then you post this! I'm back to square one I'm afraid.

it is spoken and rumoured by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

Completely agree. You've observed something 'other' and I never have.

@Jason118

You've observed something 'other' and I never have

And you're questioning it. Doesn't mean it's untrue. It's untrue for you at the moment because you are seeking evidence. The evidence is not outside of you. It is within. (and I know you have now just rolled your eyes :) )
You will experience it. Guaranteed.
Like I said up thread, it may be on your deathbed as you take your last breath, but you will experience it.This realisation that it is all a dream.