Guidance sought

[MillieMallard]

Have namechanged. I’m a Catholic and am active in my church. I go to Mass regularly. I abide by the teachings. I have been listening to faith leaders from my own and other denominations and faiths online for some time now. I also have friends with other faiths, Christian denominations and general outlooks.

I need to talk to someone because I need to discuss some faith questions but I can’t talk to my priest. The reason for this is that I know him very well which sounds contradictory but as he is embroiled in my whole life, I need neutrality. Also, he is always so busy that I don’t want to be an inconvenience. There’s lots more to this but I don’t want to out myself. A key area though is that my friend’s partner is a leader in another faith and believes I am not saved because I am Catholic. I’ve listened to information from so many avenues that I’ve been overloaded in my quest for an answer and just would like someone neutral with some theological knowledge to talk to. Any ideas? Also I haven’t come in here to be slated by atheists as seems to happen on so many other forums. Please help with any useful suggestions. I feel desperate. I just don’t know where to turn.

Aren't words just a way of pointing at something? Do they have to be taken literally?

No. They cannot because our language is not literal. It translates our/other's experience and thoughts to sound ...or unuttered/remembered sound symbolised by writing. Their etymology is also often poetic and symbolic.

All that is left is Spirit. Do you still exist?

Well, you don't physically exist as such but spirit is still present and can influence the physical world, I believe. Such as whole nations can be swept up in a collective spirit at certain times. The Zeitgeist becomes bigger than an individual.

Is it not unreasonable to say. Everything is being observed and perceived and is being reported back to the 'I am'. No judgement, no opinion. No attachment.

Where do you get the no judgement, opinion or attachment from? If we accept and are harmoniously joined with the great 'I am' surely there is attachment, agreement and acceptance?

Human is the form (the dance). Being is the formless (the dancer) - Eckhart Tolle

@leafbud

Such as whole nations can be swept up in a collective spirit at certain times. The Zeitgeist becomes bigger than an individual

Ideologies are a human construct concept.

Where do you get the no judgement, opinion or attachment from? If we accept and are harmoniously joined with the great 'I am' surely there is attachment, agreement and acceptance

It is the divine. It is you. It is not separate. As in you and me. It is ONE. WE are all ONE. It doesn't need attachment, agreement and acceptance. It just 'is'

Ideologies are a human construct concept.

I think Zeitgeists, which is what I was talking about, go deeper than ideologies. If you study anthropology across different societies that have no idea of each other there are lots of common themes.

It is the divine. It is you. It is not separate. As in you and me. It is ONE. WE are all ONE. It doesn't need attachment, agreement and acceptance. It just 'is'

Ultimately, yes. But is our physical existence our flesh can separate us.

In. Not is.

And I think this degree of separation is right for our physical existence because it allows us to make a conscious choice to be joined with the Divine.

I've read all of the words on the posts today and obviously I must have something missing. It's all complete nonsense to me, even though the sentences are made up of words I understand it's just oddly constructed mumbo jumbo (again). Entertaining though, so thank you.

It's all complete nonsense to me, even though the sentences are made up of words I understand it's just oddly constructed mumbo jumbo (again).

This just illustrates, to me, how people often interpret new information by seeing how well it fits with how they already perceive the world. As I said before, our imagination is important in terms of being able to perceive and interpret new information. If we cannot imagine and then acknowledge the possibility of something then there is the danger we will not direct our senses in order to receive new information or even if our senses do pick up that new information we will reject that information as erroneous and not process it.

@leafbud

And I think this degree of separation is right for our physical existence because it allows us to make a conscious choice to be joined with the Divine

As humans we see duality. (you and me) In Divinity we are One. So in Truth no separation. You're looking at it as, you, me and Divinity. There is just Divinity. There cannot be anything else. The body mind interprets the separation and believes it is separate. This is the programming and conditioning you have had. Everything you know has been learned. Undo that learning. Seriously, go back to zero. Is Divinity there?

This just illustrates, to me, how people often interpret new information by seeing how well it fits with how they already perceive the world. As I said before, our imagination is important in terms of being able to perceive and interpret new information. If we cannot imagine and then acknowledge the possibility of something then there is the danger we will not direct our senses in order to receive new information or even if our senses do pick up that new information we will reject that information as erroneous and not process

Because you are using the body mind to filter the information. Forget the body mind, forget imagination and just experience. Just sit with it. Just be here. No imagination. Are you aware of a presence? Once again, do not imagine it. just experience it.

Leafbud
If we cannot imagine and then acknowledge the possibility of something then there is the danger we will not direct our senses in order to receive new information or even if our senses do pick up that new information we will reject that information as erroneous and not process it.

That sounds like a recipe for schizophrenia. You perceive what you sense and you can imagine things that aren't real. You cannot change an imagined thing into a real thing - if you do so it becomes a real thing in your mind even though it is still imagined, ergo mental illness.

Neogo
As humans we see duality. (you and me) In Divinity we are One. So in Truth no separation. You're looking at it as, you, me and Divinity. There is just Divinity. There cannot be anything else. The body mind interprets the separation and believes it is separate. This is the programming and conditioning you have had. Everything you know has been learned. Undo that learning. Seriously, go back to zero. Is Divinity there?

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I've actually had to read this out loud to my wife. She's managed to calm down now, but thank you once more.

As humans we see duality. (you and me) In Divinity we are One. So in Truth no separation. You're looking at it as, you, me and Divinity. There is just Divinity.

Whilst we are living human beings, in this life, flesh and blood, I believe, we do not have full knowledge of the truth or Divinity. As our flesh separates us. We are only totally separated from the influence of our flesh in the afterlife.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1Corinthians 12)

However I believe in the afterlife we can be totally one with the Divine/God.

You perceive what you sense and you can imagine things that aren't real. You cannot change an imagined thing into a real thing - if you do so it becomes a real thing in your mind even though it is still imagined, ergo mental illness.

Imagined things manifest into real things as our intentions govern our actions and our plans come to fruition. Also we have to be prepared to look, in this order to focus our field of vision in order to see. If we did not believe in the possibility in finding what we were looking for there is a danger we might not bother. Regarding illness, what a person thinks and imagines can certainly affect their health. Stress, the nocebo and placebo effects on people's recovery from illness are well observed.

@leafbud

Whilst we are living human beings, in this life, flesh and blood, I believe, we do not have full knowledge of the truth or Divinity

So would you include Buddha, Jesus or other enlightened beings (to numerous to mention) in that list?

And forget about imagination. All that does is block you from experiencing the presence.
I know this is counter intuitive. I would like you to have the experience, just for a moment.

Francis of Assisi said.

Above all the grace and gifts Jesus gives his beloved is that of overcoming the self.

noego we need to use our imagination in order to have the hope in which we exercise our faith.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

So how can we have faith without hope? And how do we hope without imagining?

@leafbud

So how can we have faith without hope? And how do we hope without imagining?

Is imagination real?
Is the divine within you real?

Choose

You have agreed that once the body mind, the human constructed concepts, the programming and conditioning have been dropped then only spirit is left.

Yet you continue to hold onto all of the above.

Try again. Feel it. Don't imagine. No thoughts. Seriously. Try it. What do you find?

I know where you are. You are on a rickety bridge across a deep ravine and you do not trust the bridge to carry you to the other side.

It will.

This just illustrates, to me, how people often interpret new information by seeing how well it fits with how they already perceive the world So true.

She's managed to calm down now Calm down from what anger or frustration?

Maybe imagination is the wrong word, then. I have been using the word imagination in terms of having a mental visualisation of things hoped for. But maybe revelation is a better word if those hopes are a product of the divine.

@leafbud

People think that enlightenment is some major event. When in Truth it is just a realisation. It is a vision. A ah ah moment if you like. The untrue is dissolved. All concepts, programming, conditioning drop away.

The body and mind have nothing to do with it.

I am going to leave it there now.
Namaste.
Om Shanti.

noebe, you might find these interesting, then:

Philippians 4:77*
"And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."

1 Corinthians 2:166*
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

1 Peter 1:133*
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

In Christianity, our minds can be utilised in exercising our faith.

@leafbud

Pure consciousness has been called the Christ mind amongst other terms. But in Truth it cannot be labelled.

My last word.

Namaste.

noego,

Yet you continue to hold onto all of the above.

Try again. Feel it. Don't imagine. No thoughts. Seriously. Try it. What do you find?

I believe you have put too much emphasis on the language I am using and misconstrued my intended meaning somewhat. I talk about revelation in terms of the functions of the mind because that is how I and many other people have experienced it. As thoughts (for want of a better word) or mental realisations if you prefer, a mental voice/dialogue or mental pictures that just come. That does not mean these experiences are not derived from the spirit.

I know where you are. You are on a rickety bridge across a deep ravine and you do not trust the bridge to carry you to the other side.

How did you experience this realisation? Did you dream it as you do when you are asleep or was it a mental picture?

In Christianity we believe this:

2 Timothy 1:77*
"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."

I view it in terms of letting go and letting the Divine dwell in our minds and bodies as part of us.

But thank you noego, what you have said has reminded me to calm down, rest my mind and let go of erroneous fears and doubtful thoughts,

Jason118 That sounds like a recipe for schizophrenia. You perceive what you sense and you can imagine things that aren't real. You cannot change an imagined thing into a real thing - if you do so it becomes a real thing in your mind even though it is still imagined, ergo mental illness.

What difference does it make to you whether it’s all real or not? You have no belief, so why care? Do you enjoy mocking others?

What difference does it make to you whether it’s all real or not? You have no belief, so why care? Do you enjoy mocking others?

The seeking of knowledge and understanding by questioning and reasoned debate is not mocking. Sorry if I touched a nerve, I didn't realise that you have to have belief in something 'other' before you can engage.

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I've actually had to read this out loud to my wife. She's managed to calm down now, but thank you once more.

You mocked that poster. That is not reasoned debate.