Guidance sought

[MillieMallard]

Have namechanged. I’m a Catholic and am active in my church. I go to Mass regularly. I abide by the teachings. I have been listening to faith leaders from my own and other denominations and faiths online for some time now. I also have friends with other faiths, Christian denominations and general outlooks.

I need to talk to someone because I need to discuss some faith questions but I can’t talk to my priest. The reason for this is that I know him very well which sounds contradictory but as he is embroiled in my whole life, I need neutrality. Also, he is always so busy that I don’t want to be an inconvenience. There’s lots more to this but I don’t want to out myself. A key area though is that my friend’s partner is a leader in another faith and believes I am not saved because I am Catholic. I’ve listened to information from so many avenues that I’ve been overloaded in my quest for an answer and just would like someone neutral with some theological knowledge to talk to. Any ideas? Also I haven’t come in here to be slated by atheists as seems to happen on so many other forums. Please help with any useful suggestions. I feel desperate. I just don’t know where to turn.

It may exist in your and others heads, but that doesn't make it a real thing, just imagined.

I think this 'existence in people's heads' and collective 'imagination' should not be underestimated. Imagination is a powerful thing. The word is very close to the word 'magic'. It is pretty much a form of preexistence. As our thoughts effect our physical actions and our own bodily processes and perception they can end up actually manifesting physically in one way or another.

What us "Truth " though- give me an example?

I exist.

Where I sad 'actually manifesting physically'. I mean so we can detect their presence. Our brains have to be able to accept and process things physically existing to a certain extent other wise we may well subconsciously dismiss the information coming from our own senses.

@leafbud

Perhaps life's purpose is to dissolve the untrue :)

The oak tree isn't trying to be a willow, it is simply just being an oak.

noego, that, yes, and to discover (the) truth experientially.

@leafbud

Always experientially. The answer cannot be found in the mind.

OP, I think you are worrying needlessly. Jesus didn’t start hundreds of different sects, set them fighting each other and then tell them only one lot would be “saved”!
It was foolish, divisive, power grabbing men who did that.
Go back to basics. Jesus told us simply to love God and to love our neighbour as ourselves. He promised us that, if we followed Him, he would make a place for us in heaven. He didn’t follow that up with any caveats like: “ but only if you’re a catholic/baptist/unitarian/whatever!
I like the line in the hymn
“Oh Jesus thou hast promised
to all who follow thee,
that where thou art in glory,
so shall thy servant be”
I put my trust in God and Christ, not fallible human sect leaders. Simply choose whichever sect most closely reflects your views and is most helpful in developing your relationship with the God who loves you.

The answer cannot be found in the mind

I think things can be 'conceived' in the mind, though. We cannot truly experience unless we are ready to acknowledge that experience. Our subconscious or conscious mind can just dismiss new information as erroneous. Added to this, we can direct and hone our senses to a certain degree.

Sorry. Leafgrass is also me. I sometimes use different names for different boards.

@leafbud

I understand that people can get 'it' intellectually. But experiencing the existence of consciousness is different. Experiencing that 'I' exist and that 'I am' observing, perceiving and experiencing all from 'this place' is the Truth.

noego, my point is that without the mind accepting a possibility of a particular feature of existence we cannot truly experience that particular feature. Our mind would fail to process it, our senses may not even be 'switched on' to receiving the relevant information. The truth would exists but we would fail to experience it fully without our mind being capable of processing an experience of the truth.

@leafbud

Not in my experience. What is happening is just happening. To filter it through the mind would suggest it requires a judgement and opinion. It doesn't. It would suggest that the mind is the perceiver. If that is the case, then what is perceiving the perceiver?
The pure consciousness is without attachment, It merely observes.

I have heard guru's speak of the mind and that there is a higher intelligence within the mind that observes all. Sometimes called the Buddha mind. If that Buddha mind is perceived then once again I ask. What is it that perceives that?

What is happening is just happening
Yes, what is happening is just happening but for us to experience it fully we have to perceive it, ourselves, through our mind's interpretation of what is detected through our senses which are directed by our mind.

To filter it through the mind would suggest it requires a judgement and opinion. It doesn't.

Everything we think about everything is an opinion. Even purporting to have no opinion requires a decision which requires a judgement to be made.

The pure consciousness is without attachment, It merely observes.

So which human can purely observe? Everything we see is subject to accommodation through the eye, for example.

@leafbud

So which human can purely observe?

Perhaps it isn't human. I wouldn't want to label it.

As Nisargadatta Maharaj states

"Whatever you have understood, you are not.
You are not what you know, you are the knower!

noego, but you have to accept we are human with human powers and limitations. Part of acknowledging the divine/higher consciousness (in us and outside of us) comes from accepting we, ourselves, are made of flesh and bone. Our bodies tend to behave in a particular way, process information in a particular way.

What I think, though, is powerful about the imagination is that it is creative. It can reach beyond the now and cause new manifestations. As we imagination we can bring our ideas to life. What we think can change the way our body reacts to outside stimuli, can physically affect the world around us and can help us formulate plans which we can work to bring to fruition.

So why would we even want to just observe?

@leafbud

I understand the body mind concept. I understand that it is needed to live in this world. The mind is a practical tool and used for practical reasons. The body mind is capable of emotion, thought and creative imagination. I really do get that
This however is a vision that all of that is just happening. There is no attachment to it.
It is simply a spiritual being having a human experience.

It is NOT imagined. It is experienced.

So why would we even want to just observe?

As body mind we probably do.

'This' (whatever you want to call it) just does. It really is that simple.

leafbud It depends on what your definition of the We, Us or I is doesn't it. The true self/life force/god is what is observing. Maybe because that's what it wants, can and needs to do. The human is the doing. Sorry if I'm butting in btw.

It is NOT imagined. It is experienced.

noego It is both. I see imagination as part of a creative process which forms our experiences. Truly creative. We imagine and hope > act based on the outcome we are hoping for > there is physical manifestation. So the imagination prompts and shapes experience. That is the 'magic' of imagination. Where the spiritual comes in, I believe, is it is what causes us to imagine in a particular way.

Vitalogy, I think, though, I'm a humanbeing not a humandoing . I believe the divine to be at work in us and through us. I just have to 'be' (and) to let that happen.

@vitalogy

It depends on what your definition of the We, Us or I is doesn't it

And 'this' cannot be defined.

The true self/life force/god is what is observing

When body mind stops defining and just lets it 'be'. That is when 'it' is experienced.

@leafbud

I think, though, I'm a humanbeing not a humandoing

A being, being human! I wouldn't disagree

I believe the divine to be at work in us and through us. I just have to 'be' (and) to let that happen

I wouldn't disagree with this statement either. When you take body mind away. What is left?

When body mind stops defining and just lets it 'be'. That is when 'it' is experienced.

Our very language is definitive. Many view language as the crucial quality of sentience. We think in language. Words have power. We experience those words subconsciously and consciously. They form who we are.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John1:1)

When you take body mind away. What is left?

That's the big question, isn't it? I believe spirit.

@leafbud.

Aren't words just a way of pointing at something? Do they have to be taken literally?

That's the big question, isn't it? I believe spirit

So 'I am' Spirit. So if 'I am' Spirit, so you must you be and all the other beings. The 'I am' comes first, before anything else.
When you drop all human constructed concepts, all programming and conditioning, the body and mind. All that is left is Spirit. Do you still exist? Are you still here? As what are you here?

If 'I am' created in Gods own image, then the 'I am' can only be?

Is it not unreasonable to say. Everything is being observed and perceived and is being reported back to the 'I am'. No judgement, no opinion. No attachment.

Your immediate thought might be that, that needs a leap of faith. And you would be right. Let go and see!

I believe the divine to be at work in us and through us. I agree.

And 'this' cannot be defined. I'm just trying to take a stab at it with our language, I know it's inadequate sometimes.

When body mind stops defining and just lets it 'be'. That is when 'it' is experienced. I agree.