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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Chat across the great divide

204 replies

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 16/06/2017 08:08

So this is a bit of an experiment. Threads in this part of MN can get very heated and it is easy to loose sight of the person behind the screen so this is a place to chat and get to know each other whether we are christians, atheists, muslims or whatever. It isn't a place for proving that your viewpoint is right. It is more a place find out what it is like to walk in another person's shoes and that requires empathy, listening, tact and the maturity. We all know that tone is hard online as we just have words and a jokey comment ends up offending where not offence was intended. So to borrow a term from across the Atlantic - don't be a jerk and if you mess up, fess up. We are posting from places of safety (homes, offices, coffee shops) about things we hold dear. So be kind.

Maybe introduce ourselves?

I'm a vicar who was an atheist from 12-18 but I started exploring Christianity at university. The thing that keeps me going through long days is builders tea, non of your herbal rubbish, and plain chocolate digestives.

Anyone else?

OP posts:
StatelessPrincess · 20/06/2017 13:44

Itshere Personally I like the free download English translation available from www.clearquran.com. It's accurate and easy to read Smile

Pannnn I don't quite agree that understanding Arabic has no advantage, it obviously isn't essential but imo it makes memorisation much quicker and I don't believe one can fully appreciate the linguistic beauty of the Quran until one has some understanding of classical Arabic.

Broomstick I dont like tea either, I think it tastes like soil Grin

picklemepopcorn · 20/06/2017 14:14

I'm another that doesn't like tea. I drink green tea, but really I'm a coffee woman. Decaff, fair trade, nice and strong, black coffee. I'm not bothered about biscuits, but wouldn't say no to a brownie or a square of chocolate!

I must apologise for some assumptions I've made in the past, which really colour my perspective, I think. I've never lived anywhere where faith was a main stream choice. I've always been one of very few people at school, then uni, then the workplace. I have found it hard to identify with other people's perception of Christians as advantaged, influential, etc. Also, I've never been pressured to go to church, quite the opposite.

I've realised on this and the other thread that many people's experience is quite the opposite. That 'cultural' christianity is alive and well and not very edifying.

So my apologies, for not understanding how different other people's experience of faith can be.

Itsheresomewhere · 20/06/2017 14:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StatelessPrincess · 20/06/2017 15:01

Itshere I hope you enjoy it Smile

Outwith That's a really interesting point. The mainstream view is that the Quran is not meant to be in chronological order and that the order of the surahs as they appear in the Quran is divinely inspired. There is some difference of opinion as to whether it was compiled like this by Muhammad pbuh and the angel Gabriel (as commanded by Allah swt) or of it was done by the caliph Uthman. I believe the former but I do think reading in chronological order is interesting and could be especially so for non Muslims.

pickle I also don't really get the Christian privilege thing. Maybe when I was at primary school but that was over 20 years ago. These days I feel like a lot of people look down on Christians and make fun of them .

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 20/06/2017 15:10

I was reading quite recently in a report prepared by the Pew Research Centre that Islam is set to become the largest religious group in the world overtaking Christianity by the turn of the century if current trends continue. (Atheism is predicted to decline worldwide if anyone is interested!)

So it’s good to find out about Islam, as it seems certain to become an increasingly prominent part of the global religious/cultural landscape.

StatelessPrincess · 20/06/2017 15:54

I've read that too, although I've also read that the majority of adults who convert to Islam (and there's a huge amount these days) actually leave the faith after a few years. No official figures though of course. I'm surprised that atheism is declining though, I thought it was the opposite!

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 20/06/2017 16:01

Princess you might like to look at this article.

www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/07/why-people-with-no-religion-are-projected-to-decline-as-a-share-of-the-worlds-population/

I'm an atheist but I've got to tell it like it is!

StatelessPrincess · 20/06/2017 16:09

Very interesting outwith, I had no idea, thanks.

bluedemilune · 20/06/2017 16:55

Iv read about that Pew research data outwith, and i especially found the visuals of religious makeup across the world very striking. I only realised from looking at the map how few countries there are that are muslim majority countries compared to christian majority countries. I always presumed they were about the same. the rest of the stats here are also quite interesting: www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/12/18/our-christian-earth-the-astounding-reach-of-the-worlds-largest-religion-in-charts-and-maps/?utm_term=.fc878abee430

Chat across the great divide
Niminy · 20/06/2017 18:43

That Pew aresearch Centre stuff is very interesting. Atheism as we know it is a very localised European and northern American phenomenon.

Going back to Dawkins, I think the thing that put me off the most was the vanity of the man - only a few pages in he mentions someone having a passage from The God Delusion read at his funeral - the very same passage as D was planning to have at his own funeral. And that he'd got his wife to read the whole thing out loud to him. It clearly works as polemic, but it's marred by mistakes and misconceptions all over the shop.

Hume and Nietzsche are the philosophers who mount a really powerful critique of religion.

Madhairday · 20/06/2017 19:21

That is very interesting, blue. I know that Christianity is exploding right now in South America, Africa and China among others, there is unprecedented growth. It's fascinating.

ollieplimsoles · 20/06/2017 19:57

Wow the threads moving quick now!

Hello to everyone new .
Firstly I was deeply saddened that some nobody decided to rent a van and target worshippers leaving a mosque, made me sick. I hope that the Muslims on the thread continue to feel safe here, despite this event. Or maybe you don't feel safe in uk? Either way, I'd love your perspectives.

I'm in agreement with those who commented on the god delusion, I dont get why its so popular really, and I'm a Dawkins fan most of the time

Itsheresomewhere · 20/06/2017 20:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BroomstickOfLove · 20/06/2017 21:05

Hello Ollie. I'm glad your still around.

I was going to tell my story. I grew up in Northern Ireland, which was a bit of a haven for religious bigotry at the time. My parents were both atheists, but my dad was a Protestant atheist, and my mum was a catholic atheist. They divorced when I was little, and my mum's subsequent partner was a woman.

So I grew up in an atheist lesbian household surrounded by religious bigots (and some really lovely people of faith, too, but there was a high proportion of batshit crazy stuff) which meant that I got to see a lot of the worst that religion has to offer. Although my family were atheists, they made sure that I had a cultural awareness of Christianity. I could identify St Agatha in a painting (ouch), visited most of the major religious sites in Europe, could recognise quotations from not only the bible but the book of common prayer and could get through an Anglican or RC service knowing when to sit, stand and kneel. But I didn't believe in God (why would anyone worship a deity who encouraged people to have frankly creepy attitudes towards women, and seemed quite keen on getting his followers to kill and torture people?).

But although my mind rejected the idea of a god, I still yearned for something. I used to sneak into churches sometimes, and I loved the atmosphere, but not the teaching.

When I was in my twenties I embraced paganism as something that satisfied my need for spirituality without having to compromise my principals. And alongside paganism, I went to a Unitarian church, where a congregation made up of Christians, pagans, non-specific theists, atheists and agnostics all joined together on Sunday mornings to express their awe and wonder and yearning and appreciation and hope. I would probably have des describef myself as a fairly agnostic pagan.

And then I started to find it a bit unsatisfying, and was curious about Christianity but it didn't really click. And then, over the course of around a month or so, my understanding of Christianity shifted dramatically, and it no longer felt remotely incompatible with the person I was. It felt as though I'd spent a lot of my life listening to other people describing Christianity in a way that drowned out God, but that finally their voices were less noticeable.

And that's where I am now. My mum is a pretty fervent atheist, so I don't ever mention religion to her, which is awkward. But there are plenty of other things I don't talk to her about for the sake of harmony, so it's just another thing to add to the list. And I still find Christianity quite excruciatingly embarrassing to admit to. But I'm getting better at it.

BroomstickOfLove · 20/06/2017 21:13

Also, I can actually spell "you're".

StatelessPrincess · 20/06/2017 22:03

Broomstick thats a big spiritual adventure you've been on! I really hope that you'll find the confidence to be able to share that side of yourself with others.

I have a belief that our souls are connected with Allah swt and when we are looking for God it's because our soul is trying to lead us back to Him. I'm sorry if this offends any atheists! Is there anything similar in Christianity?

Ollie For the most part I feel safe in Britain although I'm always aware that as I wear hijab I could be a target. I have spent time in Iraq and have relatives in some pretty dangerous places so I suppose that puts it into perspective for me. After the Paris attack in November 2015 I did have a couple of horrible experiences though.

Niminy · 20/06/2017 22:11

St Augustine wrote in his Confessions, "you have made us for yourself, O God, and our heart is restless till it finds its rest in you". I think that's pretty similar.

StatelessPrincess · 20/06/2017 22:28

It is, and it's beautiful too, thanks Niminy

Madhairday · 21/06/2017 07:31

I was going to say the Augustine quote too :) I've just used that one as part of a book I'm writing. Love it.

Fascinating journey, Broomstick :) what is it do you think that made your view of Christianity shift? Was it some kind of experience or something else? It must be awkward with your mum and I do understand it must be hard to claim christianity for you after all you've been through. Flowers

ollieplimsoles · 28/06/2017 21:39

Sorry this has nothing to do with religion but IVE FINISHED MY BOOK! Its so nice not to have to put my DD to bed and immediately scuttle off to my office to work...

broomstick what an incredible tale! Do you think the household disdain for religion definitely pushed you into exploring your yourself? If so I always find it amazing the lengths people will go to to seek answers for themselves, despite the best efforts of pushy parents, on both sides of the belief spectrum!

stateless I think I have heard similar beliefs from christians on here and elsewhere, that god is patient and will wait for those who are trying to seek him. What I wonder is, with born again christians (and I know many) they all share a testimony with me and tell me that they heard god advise them in the hardest moment of their lives and were converted to Christianity...but how do they know it was the god of the bible that was helping them? How do they know it wasn't Allah, and they really should be following Islam?

ollieplimsoles · 28/06/2017 21:41

*the above was not intended to insult anyone on this thread of course- but the born again christians I used this on are very critical and rude about Islam.

StatelessPrincess · 28/06/2017 22:55

Ollie Muslims believe that Allah swt and the Christian God are the same. I think most Christians don't believe this though but not 100% sure. I personally believe that there is truth in every religion and that there is more than one path to God. I just think mine's the best obviously Grin

bluedemilune · 28/06/2017 23:29

I find it interesting when christians say God spoke to them. Iv never heard a muslim say that, I would think they had too grandiose an idea of themselves to Imagine that.we have no intermediaries between us and God in Islam. But still there is alot of distancing from any type of anthropormophising of God.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 29/06/2017 07:38

Christians believe that they can have a relationship with God and this is very different in Islam as far as I know. The difference is Jesus who Christians believe lived 2000 years ago but was also,present at the beginning of all things and is with us now. How that works is something that has tested the limits of language, theology and philosophy as throwing the divine into the mix does that. My impression of Islam is that the connection to God is through the Koran which is a different dynamic. I may be wrong as I've only met a very few muslims and when I was doing academic work on ethics I discovered how great my ignorance of Islamic thought really was.

The upshot of this is that when I pray I do not expect a two way conversation or to hear something or sense something or see an image but sometimes it happens. It needs testing of course as spotting the difference between what I want and where the divine call is takes a bit of doing.

OP posts:
StatelessPrincess · 29/06/2017 10:45

Green I agree that it's a different dynamic, I only know a couple of practising Christians but I got the impression from them than Christians humanize God more than us through the belief that Jesus is divine. We see God as incomprehensible and our relationship with him should be as his slave. I would definitely say that in Islam, having a close relationship with Allah swt is perceived as something that is harder to obtain than it is in Christianity. Mainstream Islam these days focuses more on our actions and less on our feelings. We don't believe that God directly speaks to us but Muslims absolutely can feel close to God and have a relationship with Him and the primary means of obtaining this is through prayer. Sufi Muslims in particular dedicate themselves to becoming close to Allah swt by turning away from the world and focusing on Him.

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