Chat across the great divide

[thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts]

So this is a bit of an experiment. Threads in this part of MN can get very heated and it is easy to loose sight of the person behind the screen so this is a place to chat and get to know each other whether we are christians, atheists, muslims or whatever. It isn't a place for proving that your viewpoint is right. It is more a place find out what it is like to walk in another person's shoes and that requires empathy, listening, tact and the maturity. We all know that tone is hard online as we just have words and a jokey comment ends up offending where not offence was intended. So to borrow a term from across the Atlantic - don't be a jerk and if you mess up, fess up. We are posting from places of safety (homes, offices, coffee shops) about things we hold dear. So be kind.

Maybe introduce ourselves?

I'm a vicar who was an atheist from 12-18 but I started exploring Christianity at university. The thing that keeps me going through long days is builders tea, non of your herbal rubbish, and plain chocolate digestives.

Anyone else?

You are right Ollie 'staunch atheist' is a bit of a misnomer. What I meant was that we were completely culturally atheist: no one had been Christened for two generations, we never went to church, even for Christmas Carols, the non-existence of God was such a given that the question simply didn't come up most of the time, people who were religious were viewed as a bit odd.

However, in recent years (though presaging me becoming a Christian) they all became more overt about their atheism. One sister is signed up to the Sunday Assembly, the other is bitterly anti-Christian; my mother read a The God Delusion as soon as it came out and remained contemptuous of my faith to the end of her life.

On the other hand, they all came to my ordination, even my mother (who despised my calling), and I think that's a testament to their generosity of spirit and the bonds of love

Not presaging - predating!

ollie I also had a really negative experiences in school with Christian teachers so I can identify. I found their attitudes very un-Christian actually. Although I'm a religious person I personally think religion in schools should be confined to R.E classes.

Me, too. In my case the teacher who told me (when I was seven) that my parents would burn in hell wasn't doing it as part of a religion lesson, or religious worship, and it wasn't a faith school. People like her put me off religion for decades.

niminy

Your response made me incredibly sad, especially the bit about your mother.

the non-existence of God was such a given that the question simply didn't come up most of the time

Id say this was true in my family, but my mum is very humanist and very spiritual, she believes in ghosts and I think she would identify as a deist. My sister is similar to my mum.

madhair
I felt like I wanted to experience religion, I live in and area where more people are christian than not, and churches are a huge part of people's lives. The Mormon church is very prominent in my area too. The religious kids just seemed so well put together, getting good grades, had good parents (my dad is terrible and ran away when I was 5). I think I pined for what they had, and wanted to be part of a 'family'. I spent lots of time first visiting different churches, but I felt like a total fraud in all of them, I had a sense the 'true believers' knew it and I always felt sort of rejected, like I wasn't good enough to be in their club.
I spoke to my R.E teacher, who told me that god puts doubts in front of us to see who is strong enough and trusts him enough to make the 'leap of faith' and I hated that.

Because I didn't actually believe in god, and I was trying to force myself, lots of people just took his existence as a given. I just never realised that not believing was an option. Once I started to discover people who thought the same way as I did, I felt better.

I was looking for a lifestyle I could live that would make everything ok and go right, like what those kids had (now for many of them it is a very different story) I never realised I could look inward and live by own values and morality. I know believers like to sometimes attribute our inner compass as something god gave us, and I don't have a problem with that, but I personally dont believe it.

The God Delusion as soon as it came out and remained contemptuous of my faith to the end of her life

Have any of you read it? I'm dying to see what a theist thought! Because I found it really hard to get into and just a bit..meh. And I love his biology books above all else.

I read it years ago ollie obviously I wasn't convinced! I can't remember it very well now but I do remember the meh feeling. I get the impression he doesn't actually know very much about religion, he just knows he doesn't like it and I find some of his views about religious people quite ignorant. We don't all believe that science and religion are incompatible and we don't all believe that people need religion to have morals.

[waves to everyone]

This is a really lovely thread - may I introduce myself and join in?

I come from a culturally Jewish background, was a church-going Christian (Church in Wales) until I was about 18 and am now an atheist, or - more accurately - an atheist agnostic. I'm with greenheart on builders' tea, but prefer custard creams to plain chocolate digestives...

Thank you for starting this greenheart i think a thread like this has been long overdue and long may it last! I would love to join in with this great initiative if i may.im hoping to get inspired by and learn from the great and good of other faith traditions and non faith traditions.

to introduce myself, i am muslim, sunni, (much love to shia brethren), i tend towards sufiyya (sufism), and i mainline strong yorkshire tea and hobnobs all day long whilst keeping up a busy household!

What a lovely thread.

Hello. I would also like to join in.

I am, I guess, agnostic. I'm basically open to thinking about anything, but lean more towards 'there's probably not a God'. I get quite baffled by those who have incredibly strong beliefs who try to press those on others (no problem with those who have strong beliefs and can discuss them without calling the other person an idiot.)

I grew up going to the Church of Scotland, but just because it was there and my mum probably enjoyed me not being in the house on a Sunday morning.

Now I live in Korea and I would never go to church here because they are basically all about the money, building huge and ugly churches everywhere, fake-seeming out-pourings of emotion and going around trying to convert people. I've been a few times with friends or family and I just can't stand how they operate. I feel like they are just trying to rip people off and prey on people's weakness. I don't remember church being like that when I was growing up.

Anyway, nice to see some polite discussion!

As for tea - builder's tea with a spot of milk, and any biscuit, but especially a plain chocolate digestive. Sadly unavailable in Korea, though you can get the milk chocolate ones.

It looks like another hot day in the U.K. today so the tea pot will be much used. Hello new people, have an early morning cuppa and biscuit.

I did read The God Delusion years ago. Professor Dawkins is a great scientist but needs to do more work on the philosophy. Philosophers can be very erm, sharp, so this review is a bit pointed but you get the drift https://philosophynow.org/issues/62/TheGoddDelusionbyyRichard_Dawkins

As a person of faith I don't recognise recognise myself as the anti science, creationist, literal bible reading, stupid person that Dawkins and some of his followers claim that I am which is why I started this thread. People are wonderful and complex so let's meet in friendship, tea and biscuits and learn from each other.

More tea?

Having a lovely cuppa right now, green . Not in the UK, but in Korea. Very hot and humid here, quite overcast and muggy. Bleh.

I am surrounded by Dawkins type people. It can be quite hard to have a conversation with them, because some of them are very self-congratulatory. 'I'm so smart because I don't believe in sky fairies.' I don't like that kind of attitude.

I like a lot of David Hume's work on God - a lot to think about.

Just enjoying my morning cuppa hope everyone manages in the heat today!

I read it years ago (mostly) and found it unconvincing and a bit spite filled tbh. Like greenheart I found it utterly unrepresentative of the faith I know and the person I am or the people of faith I know. I respect Dawkins for his biological research and enjoyed listening to him on the Christmas lectures but this seemed like he just had an axe to grind. I didn't find his arguments convincing...

Greenheart, I think what you've mentioned I struggle with - I'm far from s dinosaurs didn't exist, creationist type yet do sometimes feel that because I have faith - the implication of the Dawkinsesque seems to be that I am less - intelligent, rational.

On a brighter note, I was making salad and listening to Stuart Townsend last night which was very cheering.

Oh I do like a bit of Stuart Townend OfTheUppah.

Yes I feel the same - he was demeaning all people of faith, basically making a generalised statement that we must be cognitively lacking in some way.

I'm going to be controversial: I don't like tea. But I totally understand that most other people enjoy drinking the foul tasting swill cup that cheers and after years of practice can now make a decent cup of tea for other people.

I do drink herbal tea, and the occasional cup of weak fancy oolong, but not really proper tea. I'll do a religion post separately because I have a fairly unconvential history.

itshere sorry to butt in, just been reading this since last night.
You can always get free Qurans, an actual copy not online.
Just did a quick Google and this was the first site
www.freequraan.org.uk/order-free-qur-aan.html
But there will be others. Even some on eBay sometimes, or for 99p.

I am aware that folk should be careful when buying a copy of the Quran, esp the 'free' ones.

As we know the book was originaly written in Arabic and translations into English can be.......entertaining(!) I am told. If the translators wish to provide a particualr view or interpretation then they do so and the first time reader would not know this is a particualr 'version'.
eg Saudia Arabia and it's extreme Wahabism strain of Islam are providing free "copies of the Quran" world wide, in an attempt to be the 'dominant' view of the Quranic verses. The translations are peppered with additions to the text making political points, for example, about Israel and Palastine in specific.

From research, the 'best' go at the Quran in English seems to be The Koran Interpreted by Proff AJ Arberry who apaprently translates as best as possible and uses lyric English to try to meet Arabic lyricism.

I have Marmaduke Pickthall's The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, which can be dense at times.

One that seems best to avoid is The Noble Koran, which is highly dogmatic "salafi" based (stripped back Arab conservatives) by all accounts.

Pannnn so that must be why quite a few Muslims feel it's important to learn Arabic. So they get the original version with no translation at all, and nobody adding their own interpretation.
I was listening to two people debating whether they should wear hijab or not, both trying to quote the same parts apparently but both saying what they personally thought the words mean.
Know what should happen, they should just make 1 accepted English translation, and a high leader each from a few different sects should sit together to agree it's a good translation.
As I understand, some words are just really difficult to translate. Like how in German there are some words with no English translation and you need to explain the whole thing.

Well yes. In English we have no direct translation for the Italian word 'sympatico' so we have to say "friendly, easy to be with, understanding, sociable, urbane" etc. So the more words used the more open to interpretatation things are.

Arabic is taught to young muslims from a very early age at times so the prayers can be said in Arabic at least. The wording in the Quran still needs interpreting so 'knowing Arabic' isn't much of an advantage afaik.
Whilst the Quran is believed to be the direct word of God, even God's words need interpreting.

Strong tea and plain digestives. Lots of them!

Yes, it’s very important to read the Quran for yourself, look at different translations, and go into the enterprise with as open a mind as you can muster.

The only other advice I would give is to try to read the revelations in chronological order rather than traditional order.

I hope Muslims out there will agree this is more illuminating