Chat across the great divide

[thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts]

So this is a bit of an experiment. Threads in this part of MN can get very heated and it is easy to loose sight of the person behind the screen so this is a place to chat and get to know each other whether we are christians, atheists, muslims or whatever. It isn't a place for proving that your viewpoint is right. It is more a place find out what it is like to walk in another person's shoes and that requires empathy, listening, tact and the maturity. We all know that tone is hard online as we just have words and a jokey comment ends up offending where not offence was intended. So to borrow a term from across the Atlantic - don't be a jerk and if you mess up, fess up. We are posting from places of safety (homes, offices, coffee shops) about things we hold dear. So be kind.

Maybe introduce ourselves?

I'm a vicar who was an atheist from 12-18 but I started exploring Christianity at university. The thing that keeps me going through long days is builders tea, non of your herbal rubbish, and plain chocolate digestives.

Anyone else?

Been out for the day and seen outwith has joined!

Welcome all new people!

This just caught my eye:

However. I could choose tomorrow not to follow it. I could quite easily be immoral, be mean to people, ignore God, stop praying and stop going to church.
That is how I see that I have free will.

That's a very interesting viewpoint, do you think that for you, faith goes hand in hand with morality and virtue? You can absolutely say 'yes' I wont assume that you would kill someone if it wasn't for faith in god stopping you!

Because ive been accused in the past of having no moral compass, its an issue that people of faith seem to raise with atheists quite a bit. I always say something along the lines of;
Its a fact, we all have to live together, so we have to adhere to codes of acceptable conduct. I would simply rather live in a world where people help each other, dont kill each other, children feel safe, women are respected ect... Thats what guides my moral compass.

The question of ethics is one where it is easy to get into misunderstandings. It is likely that a Christian will cite their faith if they are trying to describe how they respond to an ethical issue. So I might say that the commandment to love my neighbour is an important one. If I stop being a Christian I have to find a different basis for my moral decisions. It doesn't mean the person is any less good, they just have to think it through. You may want to continue to act in accordance with love your neighbour, not because Jesus says it is one of the greatest commandments, but because you are convinced that doing good influences your character which is the modern version of virtue theory.

This is a fairly simple introduction. www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/introduction/intro_1.shtml

What a lovely thread. Thanks Greenheart. Lovely to see regulars here and some names that are new to me too. Really appreciating the opportunity to learn more about you all as people, we can often forget that when we're in the heat of a debate thread

Agree with all the rules. I would add please don't use the words sky fairy but I don't believe any of you here would, so I won't.

I have two dc, one 16 and just finishing her GCSEs (I've been enjoying the y11 thread with Bertrand) and one 13. I am married to a CofE vicar and we lead a large town church which has many challenges and much loveliness too. I was a primary teacher but ill health made me unable to continue; I have lung disease which is degenerative and is a huge factor in the way I think about things, including matters of faith - living in almost constant pain has meant that I have examined my faith very thoroughly as pat answers don't do it for me.

I was bought up in an atheist then Christian family - my parents converted, my dad quite dramatically from a very certain atheist. My parents always allowed space to question which I much appreciated ; it was never a case of this is what you must believe. I grew up with an open minded attitude to faith, and I explored if for myself. I did a degree in theology which challenged me greatly (it was at a normal uni, not a Christian course) and I had to face up to the many questions asked about my faith. It invigorated me and in the end, strengthened my faith.

My faith has always been experiential, like Edd and some of the others say, but I've come to recognise it as rational as well. It makes sense of many things for me. My experiences of encounter with God have been sometimes incredible and impossible to put down to emotion or to some kind of chemical reaction or wishful thinking. They've been profound.

Olli, just a quick response to your point about a moral compass. I do not believe that being a Christian makes me more moral than people without face. Not at all. I don't believe, in fact, that it makes me 'better' in any way. My belief is that we are all made in God's image and thus all of humanity has potential for great goodness and the moral code we all intuitively subscribe to is s because of that image. But you don't need to believe to carry out that morality. I see it every time I watch the news and read mumsnet; I see that most people are capable of goodness and people of all faiths and none do great things. I only differ from you as to what I believe is the origin of that morality, if you see what I mean?

Faith not face!

"My belief is that we are all made in God's image and thus all of humanity has potential for great goodness and the moral code we all intuitively subscribe to is s because of that image."

Can I ask, madhairy, if you can see why an atheist might find that statement infuriating?

I can see it and I really tried to explain that it's my belief about where our sense of morality originates but does not dictate that people of faith necessarily do better in any way. I don't really know how to say it differently but there was no offence in mind.

May I join in?

I am late 20s, with three small DC (preschool and younger). Currently SAHM but did work in office admin. Had previously started training as a nurse as always felt I was drawn to it as a career (possibly as my DM and DAunt were nurses) but left after developing mild OCD and anxiety.

Been a lifelong Anglican, involved in the church here and there, and just beginning the discernment process exploring a possible call to ordination (after ignoring it steadfastly for 11/12 years, to the point where I stopped attending church once the DC arrived - ostensibly because it was "too difficult" to manage them on my own but really because I was scared and running away from whatever this call was, to my shame). So that's me, I am pleased to "meet" you all after lurking in this section of MN for quite some time

"I don't really know how to say it differently but there was no offence in mind."

Of course there wasn't.

But your sense of morality comes from your faith. Mine doesn't. And I do find it - sorry, the language is difficult here but I can't think of another word- offensive when you say my moral compass comes from an external source I don't believe exists.

??

I was trying to respond to Ollies question as she has come across Christians who say they are morally superior. I really wanted to say that I don't think like that

I tried to say that is my belief. Not that it has to be yours. I'm very sorry I have offended you.

You haven't offended me- you said something that I find offensive - there's a difference!
Am I misunderstanding you? When you said" My belief is that we are all made in God's image and thus all of humanity has potential for great goodness and the moral code we all intuitively subscribe to is s because of that image." I thought you were saying that everyone's moral code comes from your God, whether we believe in him or not?

Nice to see a thread where mutual respect is present.
Brought up a Christian, left the faith during my Uni years (couldn t be bothered/too much else to do!). In late 20s , realised something big was missing in my life and felt the pull back. Tried to ignore it but couldn't. Felt I was coming home.
I totally understand why atheists get frustrated because we can't explain it - my dh is atheist- but like Edd and MHD say, it is a feeling that you are being called and, in the words of Star Trek, "Resistance is futile" I ve absolutely no idea why me.
Good luck Buttface in discernment process.

OK thanks.

Yes. My belief is that every person reflects God's image. I can't limit the God I believe in to having an effect only on people who believe in that God, I suppose. Thus I am saying not so much that all people get their moral code from God, which implies that people without faith must have faith anyway, but more that people have a moral code because they are created by God. And people live out that moral code in all faiths and none. I can't think of a way to put it without it being something your find offensive, but was trying to offer it to qualify me saying I don't think I have a better moral code. anyway... Moving on!

OK. Sadly, I don't think this thread is for me. It seems to me that once again, "respect" seems to mean not challenging people of faith on their beliefs and privilege while it is quite OK for theists to say that an atheist's moral compass comes from God, or that being an atheist just means that you have shut down your spiritual side.

A shame. It was a good idea.

I can see the thread has moved on somewhat but I did want to respond to Edd’s comment – thank you for getting back to me.

While I agree with you it’s rather late in the day to be thinking about editing the Bible, or the Quran for that matter, I do feel there is a case to be made for annotation, or a commentary, making clear the historical context if necessary and emphasising that a particular assertion is no longer condoned.

To make things more concrete, here are two extracts from the Bible and Quran, which illustrate the harsh viewpoint mentioned in my previous post.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

from Revelation in the Bible

Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

from Surah Al-Bayyina in the Quran

(Al-Mushrikun means polytheists and pagans.)

It may seem an academic point but if you think your God is so angry with non-believers that he’s going to send them to Hell, it hardly encourages you to adopt a humane attitude towards those same non-believers in the living years.

The only aspect that is open to interpretation is whether the passages refer to non-believers now or apparently badly-behaved non-believers back then.

I think if you, as a believer, don’t want people to interpret the words as relating to non-believers nowadays, the very least you can do is provide an annotation to say so.

And I don’t think you can just shrug your shoulders and assume people won’t take it seriously these days - because clearly some people do.

No text, no matter the supposed provenance, should be above scrutiny.

Fair enough, no one has to,stay. Hope you have good evening.

If that's because of me, Bertrand, I can only say sorry. In attempting to bridge a gap and mend bridges I seem to have made it worse

Sorry Green

Hello everyone

I went to Catholic schools for ten years, but only believed for a portion of that time (didn't ever take communion etc). I've been firmly atheist for many more years. I majored in Physics at uni, which cemented that lack of belief.

The book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature which is visionary and can contain coded language for the political situation of the time. It takes a lot of interpretation. Christians in my tradition do not take the Bible literally so working out what sort of genre it is is really important.

Itshere

Apparently the official position of the Catholic church is that atheists are still destined for hell, although even the Pope can be a bit unclear about it at times. So non-believers really are non-Christians in above passage.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catholic-church-confirms-atheists-still-go-to-hell-after-pope-francis-suggests-they-might-go-to-8634479.html

I am in my 20s, brought up in the Catholic Church, completed communion etc. Primary and secondary were fully catholic schools.

Fell in and out of religion since I was very young. Don't feel comfortable in the church. At a loss really. My boyfriend is an atheist, sometimes we can have very good conversations about religion, I am open minded but certainly don't follow the catholic way of life.

🙏🏼

Sorry- I just had to pop back to say to madhairy that no, it's honestly not because of you. I know you didn't mean to be offensive, and I know from other threads that you are a good, thoughtful person with sincerely held beliefs.

The problem for me is the way Christianity is thought of as a "protected characteristic" The fact I consider myself a pretty polite poster, but I feel that I have to walk on eggshells on here so as not to offend Christian sensibilities. It took me ages to find a way to respond to madhairy in a way that would not upset her, and sadly I think I've failed. I even thought of just letting what she said pass, even though it represented one of the biggest issues I have with theists. it's all tied up with Christian privilege. Anyway, as they say, it's not you, it's me.