Chat across the great divide

[thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts]

So this is a bit of an experiment. Threads in this part of MN can get very heated and it is easy to loose sight of the person behind the screen so this is a place to chat and get to know each other whether we are christians, atheists, muslims or whatever. It isn't a place for proving that your viewpoint is right. It is more a place find out what it is like to walk in another person's shoes and that requires empathy, listening, tact and the maturity. We all know that tone is hard online as we just have words and a jokey comment ends up offending where not offence was intended. So to borrow a term from across the Atlantic - don't be a jerk and if you mess up, fess up. We are posting from places of safety (homes, offices, coffee shops) about things we hold dear. So be kind.

Maybe introduce ourselves?

I'm a vicar who was an atheist from 12-18 but I started exploring Christianity at university. The thing that keeps me going through long days is builders tea, non of your herbal rubbish, and plain chocolate digestives.

Anyone else?

They're very open at school about their faith, particularly DD, and she does get ridiculed at times for it (the usual brainwashed/spaghetti monster/sky fairy type of thing ). She's pretty clued up and is willing to engage in debate, so her RE teacher has told me! We've brought them up being clear that this is what their dad and I believe, but it's your choice and if you don't want to go to church we will never force you. We've always been prepared to answer questions or search together for answers or ideas.

I do believe in satan and heaven. The Bible is clear that satan is destroyed for eternity so there can be no hell where satan is. Heaven is what God's kingdom is and scripture says that it will be a renewed heavens and earth ie not an airy fairy place but a perfect version of what we live in, where there is no more death or mourning or pain. There's so much to look at in this though, it'd take an epic book to examine it all! What do you think about heaven and hell, out of interest?

Different denominations of Christianity have different understandings of what hell might be. I've known some who believe in fire and brimstone for anyone not in their denomination or sect but the Church if England of which I'm a member produced a document in the mid 1990s called 'The Mystery of Salvation' which stated that hell is not eternal torment but something like annihilation or non being.

I tend to think of heaven and hell as not so much about punishment /reward or even good/bad, but about being in the presence of or separated from God.

Thats great that they can stand up for what they believe in madhair I hope my DD will be the same.

Hell is also quite complicated in Islam. The most obvious and common interpretation is the old school eternal fiery hell of torture that is not on earth. There is a difference of opinion about whether or not people only go to hell temporarily. There is another interpretation which is less obvious but makes more sense to me- In the events of judgement day the world will be transformed into hell. A verse in the Quran tells us that everyone will be in it until the righteous are saved to heaven and the evil are left behind. That's what I believe. We don't believe that hell is satan's realm although we do believe in satan. Some of the Sufi sects reject the traditional views of hell and sometimes it's existence at all but it's a subject I haven't really explored in depth. I also believe that heaven is Allah's swt kingdom and a place where no death or pain will happen. Heaven is described to us as beautiful gardens but we are also told it's beyond our imagination and comprehension.

That's sounds really interesting greenheart and similar sounding to some of the Sufi views I've read about.

That's where I am with it, greenheart, it seems to me to tally most with scripture and what Jesus meant by hell/gehenna. I think the official name is conditional immortality and it's all about everyone choosing whether to be in the presence of God or not - as Broomstick says.
I like your description of heaven, stateless, as beyond our imagination, that's how I think of it, as more amazing than we can comprehend :)

Am I the only atheist left?!

Welcome new people and its lovely to see a muslim here to give a pov.

Taking what niminy said unthread:

One thing I think would be helpful when we are discussing the Biblewoukd be to quote from modern translations rather than the King James Version

Is there a version of the bible, amongst all the translations, that doesn't contain any thing you have to wrestle with? And when it comes up (such as the Judges passages and Exodus' slavery passages) how do you square it?

I noticed bringing up dc in christian households came up unthread too. My view on this is as a christian, you would likely see this as the best possible path for your children, so would hope they chose to follow it and stay faithful. When they are young I presume church and ritual are part of their lives as its family tradition, so when do you start saying ' this is what we believe, but you can make your own choice' ?

I'm interested to see the different views from theists on this!

That's a really good question, Ollie. Trying to think back far into the mists of time and remember exactly how we did it.

Our dc have been brought up amongst Christian ritual, church, worship. It's been part of their lives since they were born, you're right. I do remember that very early on we felt it important to qualify how we talked to the dc about faith with 'this is what we believe but not everybody does.' in fact dd has just walked in so I asked her what she thinks: she says that to her, we always made it very clear that it was completely her choice and that we would support her no matter what she chose. She doesn't remember a time when she wasn't aware that others had different beliefs, because we always talked about that. I had taught RE in primary school so may well have influenced how I think about it and I

That was cut off early. I was always keen to balance their experience of faith with information from various sources. She says that she felt that we never forced or influenced her.

Very pleased to hear that :)

She also says she's glad we weren't some of 'those parents' who prevented her reading Harry Potter or studying RE or going to a mosque or something. She came across kids like this and felt sad for them

From my experience growing up in a Christian home and bringing kids up in a Christian home, following Jesus is a choice that has to be made and not something you just osmose into.This has certainly always been clear to me and my children understand. As I said in an earlier message, of my 3, currently one believes, one thinks she probably does but not 100% and my son says he thinks he does not believe.At 10,12 and 14, I expect their views could change in either direction over the next few years. We will love them whatever they choose to believe obviously.

Re bringing up children, I always felt that the relationship they develop with God is up to them. I took them to places and activities where they could see and learn about him, given that the world is basically secular. I told them that the church also has a really important social and community function that I wanted them to experience. The relationship they develop with God, their choice as to whether to believe it, was entirely their own.

In most of the UK at least, it would be really hard to find a context where children think faith is the only way. I think there are some Scottish areas where there is still a lot of pressure to conform in faith. Everywhere else, the opposite pressure is more usual. Surprise at people going to church or being Christian seems more usual. I know the odd family who home schooled because they were unhappy about behaviour in mainstream schools, but not to keep their children away from people who do not believe. I used to love taking my children to Christian conferences where there were big crowds of Christians. It was such a change, and a comforting experience.

I was brought in a church-going family, and joined in willingly and enthuastically until I left school. But it was strange because we didn't talk about Jesus at all, or much about faith or the Bible. It was all just part of the background of who we were - not front and centre - despite the fact that everyone else we knew would have considered us devout. It was very much the middle class, tick the CofE box - type community, and no-one but us and a handful of others would really even have owned the label Christian.

When I started to question and want to work it all out for myself I basically got spooked. It was more difficult than I had thought and I just threw the baby out with the bathwater and moved away from the whole thing. As I've said before it was years and years before I went back.

Which is a long-winding way of saying that I agree that children have to make their own minds up sooner or later, and be given the tools to do that. My DC were born into an atheist family, and still have one staunch atheist parent. I think they all define as atheists themselves, though I hope they are willing to think about their beliefs as they grow up and not just assume. I would love to 'expose' them to a little bit of my God because at the moment they live in an entirely secular world -just so they get some idea of what they are choosing between. But that is not really possible for now and I won't force it on them.

ollie there are no versions of the Bible that don't contain things you have to wrestle with, it's just that it's better to start from an accurate text. The short answer to your question is that you have to try and understand the context of the passage - the author, the historical time and location, the audience - and from that work out what the underlying meaning is - what is he really getting at (safe to assume 'he' I think for most of it), not just what the literal words say. Also very much the genre - some of the Bible is story-telling, some poetry, some textbook etc etc.

Thanks for replying so comprehensively guys.

Taking what pickle and vdb said about relationships with god and Jesus, do you think that viewpoint frames it in a way that suggests god exists, but you choose to believe in him or not? I'm interested to see if any religious households tell the children something like 'god might not even exist, but we choose to believe he does'

And re the bible, one thing that always put me off was, how do you choose which bits to take in which way?
I always asked- why the vagueness? If god didn't want things all to go wrong with humanity, why not be more clear?

I wouldn't say "God might not exist, but we choose to believe he does" any more than I would say "God might exist but we choose to believe he doesn't". Our conversations about the existence of God are more the lines of "Do you think God exists? What are your reasons for thinking that? Different people worship different Gods - do you think that only one group is right? Can they all be right? If not, what about the ones who are wrong? Why do you think that some people believe in God and some people don't? There are some gods that used to be worshipped but aren't any more - does that change how likely they are to exist?" And things like that.

And re the bible, one thing that always put me off was, how do you choose which bits to take in which way? I'm really interested in this too. In Islam we believe the Quran is the words of Allah swt, almost all Muslims believe that we have to accept all of it or none of it.
I read the Bible as a teenager although I don't think I understood much of it, can anyone recommend a simple English version for me? I would like to give it a go again, the one I have is a king James with tiny tiny writing that I was given in primary school.
The posts on raising children with religion have really made me think about the approach I will take with my DD when she gets a bit older... I want her to have freedom but I'll admit that I hope she will want to be Muslim.

There is a difference within Christianity about how to read the Bible. Some at the very conservative end say that it is the literal,word of God. At the very liberal end it is a set of texts that gives insight into the ways that people have encountered the divine. There is a huge space in the middle which causes all,sorts of debates. As it is a library and not a book and in translation it is not easy to interpret especially as the culture it was written in is profoundly different from our own and some of the stories are probably thousands of years old such as the memories of the flood which form the two flood narratives in Genesis.

That is a very long winded way of saying that every text has to be read with care. As Christians we interpret the Old Testament through the lens of the new as our faith is based on a relationship with Jesus and not with a book although the library of texts that we have are key in understanding how the first Christians encountered and understood him.

It must look very odd from the outside. The amount of scholarship and debate that can turn on a phrase is phenomenal so unless you are of the 'it is in the Bible so I believes it' part of Christianity there is a lot of work in interpreting the Bible. That is why most churches have bible study groups to wrestle with the text. A good translation is the NIV new international bible although it shows its evangelical roots with non inclusive language. We use the NRSV new revised standard version. The Jerusalem Bible is more poetic and the Message is less accurate but has a go at being more accessible to a modern audience.

I think the new NIV is more inclusive, isn't it?

Have to go out but back later to answer Ollie's interesting questions :-)

Thats very insightful greenheart thank you. Although we believe the Quran is the word of God we still have many differences of opinion in interpretation and countless different commentaries have been written to be read along side it, I can't begin to imagine how much more complicated study of the Bible must be. Perhaps if I had viewed it as a library instead of a confusing book I would have got on better with it, i'll check out the versions you recommend

That's a great explanation, greenheart. For me the bible is a starting point to learning about God, just one of several things that give us clues as to how to relate to him.

Ollie, that is interesting about the assumption of God. I think the world around them is very clear that God doesn't exist. The vast majority of people they know at school do not believe, do not go to church, and are surprised to find anyone who does. RE at school uses phrases like 'Christians believe that', Muslims believe that', so again very clear to see that most people do not 'believe that'. I think there is a huge and widespread conversation 'if God exists why does he...' which pretty much lets the cat out of the bag, too!

Honestly, the idea of needing to point out that God might not exist is actually making me smile wryly!

Ollie, am I right in thinking that you were raised in an environment of religious extremism where you were pretty much kept isolated from any influences which might suggest that God doesn't exist

Because that sort of upbringing is pretty abhorrent to the vast majority of Christians, too, and really doesn't reflect how we discuss faith with our children.

Yes, sorry, I qualified a similar point I made elsewhere. I was generalising and also referring to my family's experience.

yy greenheart. It's vital to employ context and interpretation on the text, because as you say the books are of different times, different genres, different audiences and authors. I do believe scripture is inspired by God, but that is not the same as saying I believe God wrote every word. I also like the way you say we interpret the OT in the light of Jesus - this is exactly where Christianity is coming from. Jesus didn't say we didn't need the OT but did say he came to fulfil it, so it's important to understand what he meant by that and how he interpreted it. it's always interesting to me that the first passage he applied to himself when launching into his ministry was Isaiah 61 which was all about setting the oppressed free and turning sorrow into joy. His manifesto was steeped in compassion and justice - and that's what I see when I look at the God of the bible. It doesn't stop me feeling uncomfortable with certain passages which appear to contradict this, but does help me to come at the text with care and attention to detail. I really love biblical hermeneutics :-)

As for your question Ollie about whether people of faith ever say to their dc there may not be a God: I've been thinking about this. I fully own that since my dc were born I have longed for them to know God as I do, simply because I feel that God brings fulness of life and is truth and love. (not at all to say they can't know good things without God, far from it, but let's not go there for this question!!) But we all want the best for our children, and if someone has a strongly held, experiential faith, then that parent would desire their children to know that too - as stateless does for her dd.

The problem with that would be if the sincerely held faith was harmful or oppressive, and I am fully convinced that my faith in Jesus is not; in fact, the very opposite. I experience as it as lifebuilding and liberating.

That said, this obviously informed the way I framed faith for my kids. But we were absolutely determined to give them free agency in any decisions they made; if they held to faith because of force then it would be no faith. The faith I know is freedom, and thus people are free to choose or not (hence free will... err maybe we shouldn't go there either)

So where am I getting to: Yes, I wanted my dc to know Christ, and also wanted my dc to be free, questioning, autonomous people who decide this - or not - for themselves. Thus, there were times that we talked about the possibility of there being no God and admitting that we can never 'know' for an absolute definite (empirically speaking), and then talking about how it would affect our lives if there turned out to be no God after all. What if we died and that was it? We discussed this kind of thing, and talked about the fact that we would have lived good lives, just as many people without faith do, and there is no harm in that. If we ever used our faith to oppress others, that would be another matter, but I cannot imagine ever doing harm to anyone else, and believe that to be against my faith, and against the moral standard I believe we all know inside of us.

So yes - we allow for possibilities, and we weigh questions and challenge one another. I particularly love that DD is studying RE because we get some interesting conversations over dinner :-)

Re Ollie's question about bringing up children: I wasn't a Christian when my children were born, so they weren't baptised as infants - I wasn't baptised myself come to that, because I was brought up in a staunchly atheist family. I can remember being interested in God as a child (though I have no memory of how my mother - no father - talked about God or religion), and I started going to church as a teenager partly as a form of rebellion. Then after that I drifted away and became pretty atheist for many years. I recognise many of the things atheists say on here because I used to say them myself. After my children were born, I had a really hard time and found myself praying because I couldn't think what else to do. It took several years for God to wear down my resistance - for ages I was too embarrassed to admit to anybody that I had these strange urges to pray and go to church, and it took months of walking to the door of the church and walking away again before I took my first step inside. I really cannot say that anybody forced me to believe - or even coaxed me to believe!

I've taken my children to church, and taught them to pray, and we've had a lot of conversations - much along the same lines as MHD has described. They both chose to be baptised, and one of them would I think describe himself as a Christian and one would sometimes and at other times not. My husband is an agnostic (though not unsympathetic to religion) so they certainly have a different viewpoint available at home. We have atheist friends and all our family on both sides are atheists, some trenchantly so, so they can hardly be being brought up in a Christian bubble.

I hope they will have faith, and I hope they will be Christians, because I want them to have something that for me has been utterly life-enriching. But I can't make them have it and I wouldn't want to. Neither would I want to close down any conversations. One thing they know is that no topic of conversation is banned and they are always free, no encouraged, to challenge and question.

Thanks for your answers everyone, please feel free to ask me anything that comes up.

broomstick I wasn't raised in a religious household, religion was one of the many the parents didn't bother with. But myself and many other little children my age were tortured by a very christian school teacher for two years. That's why I'm the first to admit I lean strongly towards keeping religion out of schools in every way ( even I had very meaningful relationships with teachers who were very strict christians later on).

I personally worry about 'staunch atheist household' It makes no sense, bringing a child up telling them what to think and banning topics of discussion is bad from whatever viewpoint you take. It also helps to perpetuate the myth that atheism is some kind of religion.

I believe in teaching children how to think, and not what to think.

for ages I was too embarrassed to admit to anybody that I had these strange urges to pray and go to church, and it took months of walking to the door of the church and walking away again before I took my first step inside.

I had this experience in my late teens for about three years, I explored lots of denominations and had urges to pray and be in churches. Personally I think I can put my finger on why this was for me, but everyone is different.

I'm so sorry you had that awful experience with that teacher, Ollie I'm not surprised you feel strongly about faith in schools.

Interesting to hear about the time in your teens - what happened, out of interest? Did that urge fade away or did nothing 'grab' you?

I believe in teaching children how to think, and not what to think

Yes, this!