Chat across the great divide

[thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts]

So this is a bit of an experiment. Threads in this part of MN can get very heated and it is easy to loose sight of the person behind the screen so this is a place to chat and get to know each other whether we are christians, atheists, muslims or whatever. It isn't a place for proving that your viewpoint is right. It is more a place find out what it is like to walk in another person's shoes and that requires empathy, listening, tact and the maturity. We all know that tone is hard online as we just have words and a jokey comment ends up offending where not offence was intended. So to borrow a term from across the Atlantic - don't be a jerk and if you mess up, fess up. We are posting from places of safety (homes, offices, coffee shops) about things we hold dear. So be kind.

Maybe introduce ourselves?

I'm a vicar who was an atheist from 12-18 but I started exploring Christianity at university. The thing that keeps me going through long days is builders tea, non of your herbal rubbish, and plain chocolate digestives.

Anyone else?

Actually for many reasons I would love there to be a beautiful afterlife for everyone - most especially right now when I consider those who died in the Grenfell blaze.

outwith yes. There are many commentaries on the Bible, and of course many people preaching on different passages every Sunday all over the world. In my ideal world they would all explain the tricky parts according to my pov. There are versions that 'annotate' as you suggest - but I don't think any one interpretation can impose their view on others (sadly!).

mhd lovely to see you and your thoughtful posting here :)

What about the Quran passage condemning Christians to Hell? Should that just be left without comment too?

Thank you Bertrand. Much appreciated. I was upset but more at the thought of upsetting you! Like itsheresomewhere it's hard sometimes to feel like you don't need to walk on eggshells. But important to respect one another and I hoped this thread would be a good way to do this.

I sincerely was just sharing what I thought but in the context of trying hard not to say this is what you should think - so maybe I failed at that oh dear!

Anyway. Would be interesting to have a conversation about Christian privelege because I agree that such a thing can be oppressive and wrong. But maybe this isn't the thread.

Hello Outwith - glad you're here, always enjoy your posts.

Hello Edd

Well I thought I was saying that those passages should be commented upon. My only caveat is that it's above my pay grade to impose my views on the rest of the world. But yes certainly those who are able to explain passages of any Holy Book in a way that makes sense in the 21st century should be taking every opportunity- yes, imo. (I would if it were me preaching).

"You could start an atheist chat thread, in a similar vain to the Christian chat thread if you feel uncomfortable."

Oh blimey- is this a Christian thread? If it is, I'm really sorry, I must have misunderstood

Edd, as an outsider to both faiths, I have even less justification for imposing my views! But if I did get to vote on the matter, I would vote for making annotation compulsory to neutralise the nasty stuff. (And I'm quite liberal about most things, I think.)

Edd I have a special love for the difficult bits of the Bible. Sometimes Christians wish that they weren't there, and sometimes they try to over-simplify them. Generally I think you have to acknowledge the difficulty and then get to grips with it. I remember being really challenged when Judges 9 came up in the daily readings just after the Orlando massacre last year. I had to wrestle for a long time to make any sense of that passage.

One thing I think would be helpful when we are discussing the Biblewoukd be to quote from modern translations rather than the King James Version (which gets quoted a lot by atheists, in my experience). Modern translations are much more faithful to the Greek and Hebrew texts and it would make a much better discussion if we were on the same literal page.

I use commentaries all the time for sermon preparation and there are loads of different ones with different theological perspectives. They are really helpful though in giving background information, helping to understand context, and the connotations of the words in the original language.

I was just going to say isn't the NIV more faithful (is that the word I mean?) to the translation?

Yes I agree niminy. I love trying to figure it all out, and I'm wary of the cherry picking approach, or of oversimplification. But I'm such a beginner I rely a lot on stuff I read, and ideas from others I discuss this stuff with (like tuo). Not schooled enough in Bible studies yet to work it all out for myself! Working on it. :)

I hope nobody minds me jumping in, been reading along and have found the different views expressed very interesting. I just wanted to comment on OutwiththeOutCrowd's post on the previous page that quotes the Quran 98.6. This translation is misleading and I believe (but not 100% sure) it's been taken from a version called the Noble Quran which is an awful, highly criticised but very common version (funded by Saudi government). A better translation would be-

Those who disbelieve among the People of the Scripture, and the Polytheists, will be in the Fire of Hell, where they will abide forever. These are the worst of creatures.

This verse has been interpreted slightly differently by different scholars but looking at the verse in it's original language and in context to the rest of the Quran and hadith, the interpretation you posted doesn't make sense. It's not saying Christians and Jews will go to hell it's talking about the people who profess to submit and believe in Allah swt but actually don't. We also have the example of the prophet Muhammad pbuh to go by. One of the most famous examples of Muhammad's respect for people of other faiths comes from this hadith-

Qais ibn Sa’d reported: A funeral passed by the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and he stood up. It was said to him, “It is a Jew.” The Prophet said, “Was he not a soul?”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 1250, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 961

I'm out too. This thread has only served to highlight and deepen divisions.

Atheists are closed minded and lack moral compass.
The ten commandments are laughable.
The first four are pandering to the ego of a poorly constructed ancient bigot, the rest are no revelation- all are simply observations of altrusitic societies.

Good luck with this thread. My attitudes towards christianity has worsened because of it.

Stateless that's really interesting about the translation. That's quite like when people quote the King James Version of the Biible which, though the language is often beautiful, is also terribly inaccurate by modern standards.

Princess my sincere apologies if you are not keen on the translation I chose.

Thank you so much for your feedback!

The reason I chose it is because it makes clear what one has to disbelieve in - Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad – in order to be consigned to Hell.

But if we take, say, the Pickthall translation,

Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

It is ambiguous as to what is being disbelieved in.

However, if one wishes to stay with this version of Pickthall, who was an English translator, elucidation is provided by, for example, surah 5 Al-Maida:

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (72) They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. (73) Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (74) The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

So, from my understanding, believing that Jesus (Isa ibn Maryam) is the Son of God is shirk of the worst kind and it is this that will see you going to Hell.

There were actually Jewish Jesus followers - People of the Book - who were Unitarians and they would have been considered acceptable. It was the Trinitarians that merited the wrath of Allah.

OutwiththeOutCrowd You're right, the Quran is clear that the belief that Jesus is the son of God constitutes shirk which is a huge sin in Islam. However, we also learn in the Quran that if a person commits sin without knowing that they will not be blamed. Interestingly, those who chose shirk are called muskrik in the Quran but even Christians who believe in the trinity are not called this.
At the end of surah Al-Maidah we have a conversation that will take place in heaven between Allah swt and Jesus. Jesus asks for God's mercy for his followers who committed shirk. Allah swt replies-
This is a Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness. They will have Gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will remain forever. God is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him.
We are told repeatedly in the Quran that salvation lies through a belief in one God, the day of judgement and doing good deeds. We hear in surah 2:62-
Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in God, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
Close to the end of the Quran in surah Al-Asr, Allah swt says of all mankind-
By Time. The human being is in loss. Except those who believe, and do good works, and encourage truth, and recommend patience.

There has always been debate amongst scholars on the position of Christians and people of other/no faiths, but up until recently the mainstream view and interpretation was that they could reach heaven. Unfortunately this belief seems to be changing, I believe this is to do with the current salafi influence on Islam. Many salafi scholars unfortunately believe that anyone who is not just like them is destined for hell. I don't share this view and think it's a very damaging belief.

*"You could start an atheist chat thread, in a similar vain to the Christian chat thread if you feel uncomfortable."

Oh blimey- is this a Christian thread? If it is, I'm really sorry, I must have misunderstood* 

Bert, she's not referring to this one as the Christian chat thread, but to the other one actually called 'Christian chat thread' iirc.

Welcome to statelessprincess and to everyone else who is new to the thread.

As a Christian and someone brought up in the UK there are lots of things about Islam I not really understand because although we come from the same family as children of the book there is so much that is different between our two faiths. I've been very blessed in the past few years in finding women who would put up with my idiot questions about why and how things are done and I realise I've only scratched the surface. The experience of not knowing and feeling a bit at sea is a good reminder of how people who come from outside Christianity or my bit of it feel when they are faced with me or my church. It is so easy to stay in a bubble and talk to,people who are the same as us.

Although I'm sorry that two,people have withdrawn from this thread I would like to thank Bertrand for the phrase walking on eggshells because I think we are all probably doing that. I nearly signed off with a blessing but realised in time that would be less than sensitive. I hope that we can continue to talk and learn from each other; to apologise and to think the best of each other. So tread gently people, we are stepping into areas that are part of our identity.

I hope so too greenheart :)

Welcome statelessprincess. Really interesting to explore more about what Islam teaches. I'm sadly rather ignorant about it and always appreciate learning more. Is @crescentmoon around? She always has some great things to offer.

Re. The interpretation of the Quran and Muhammad's attitudes towards non-Muslims.

I suppose what baffles me is that people feel the need to search in ancient texts to find and interpret what Jesus/Muhammad/whoever said about this or that when it is quite glaringly obvious that we should treat everyone with respect regardless of their religion.

Thank you Greenheart and Madhairday
I realised I didnt introduce myself like everyone else. Obviously I'm Muslim lol I have 1 Shia parent, 1 Sunni parent and my brother is an atheist. I'm in my early 30s and apart from about 5 years in my teens have been in Islamic education since age 4. I went to both Sunni and Shia Quran schools as a child.
When I was a teenager my family moved to an area with hardly any Muslims. I ended up taking my hijab off to try and fit in at school and this led to me stopping practising other aspects of Islam which led to me sort of window shopping other religions for a bit. I was really into the Baha'i faith for a while and had brief flirtations with buddhism and sikhism (and a sikh fiance). I had an experience in a mosque at 19 and came back to Islam.
I now mostly follow the Sunni Deobandi movement. My husband follows the Maliki school which means we sometimes have ridiculous arguments, like about snails being halal to eat or not. We have a little DD who will be raised Muslim but always encouraged to think for herself and be open minded.

Greenheart I was really interested to read that you don't believe in hell, can you tell me more?

Madhairday I'm happy to answer any questions as best I can, unfortunately I'm not half as eloquent as crescentmoon, who I've always admired on other threads.

Lovely to meet you stateless. Sounds like you've been on an interesting journey. I feel the same re my DC - we're raising them to be questioning and open minded but in a Christian home. At present, both of them are Christians and have a living faith of their own. DD particularly is interested in faith matters and is looking forward to RE A level.

Your differences sound much like denominational differences in Christianity!

Like greenheart, I don't believe in hell in terms of eternal torment. I believe that to be a medieval construct to keep the masses under control, and don't think it is biblical...

You too Yes my journey was a bit of a confusing trek at times madhair but overall I think it did me good and I'm now very secure in my beliefs.
Have you had any difficulties in raising your children with religion, can they be open about their faith with school friends etc?

Now I'm even more intrigued about the hell thing! What about satan? And do you still believe in heaven?