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Original poster

IVF and Catholicity

166 replies

RaisinGirls · 06/04/2016 08:42

I am really struggling at the moment and would appreciate any support you can offer. I have one DD but have also had 3 MC.

After much soul searching I have decided to go for IVF as due to my age I really feel like it's the last roll of the dice, and I would dearly like my DD to have s sibling.

I have now started IVF but can't shake the feeling that what I am doing is wrong as I am a Catholic. I feel deeply guilty by what I am doing and feel like I can't go to Mass anymore. Has anyone a perspective that can help me?

OP posts:
Lweji · 07/04/2016 17:50

It can be if it means ending up killing a number of embryos if you think that is the same as ending a human life.
What it means is that it's not always about the end result. The methods have to matter too. If something about the method is very wrong for you, it shouldn't matter how good the result is.

Cottonflossy · 07/04/2016 17:55

I appreciate that for some the process of ivf isn't the right choice for them. I still can't agree with your comparison between Ivf and a man raping a woman.

Lweji · 07/04/2016 18:04

Of course it's not a direct comparison, but for someone who considers abortion as murder, then it should be perfectly valid if viable embryos end up being destroyed.

Just in case, I'll point out again that it's possible to use methods that don't create surplus embryos. My comments don't refer to IVF in general, only to the methods that create that surplus and may end up in disposal of viable embryos.

Cottonflossy · 07/04/2016 18:07

I see how someone who believes that abortion is murder is likely to see the destruction of embryos also as murder.

I still fail to see how a man raping a women can be compared. Utterly bizzare.

allegretto · 07/04/2016 18:13

It is really hard and I am struggling with it myself, even though I have already had IVF. When I started the IVF process I was told that they would only fertilize as many eggs as they would implant so that none were discarded. This is possible but also means that the success rate is lower as they might only fertilize two - and those might not be the best two eggs iyswim.

Lweji · 07/04/2016 18:19

Cottonflossy
Seriously? That the purpose of creating a life doesn't make whatever you do to achieve it fine? Give up.

Cottonflossy · 07/04/2016 18:26

Yes seriously. Incomparable to rape. Obviously that's my opinion as you're entitled to your own and I'm also entitled to find that a very strange point of view.

dontcryforme · 07/04/2016 18:35

Lweji your rape analogy is frankly offensive. (And makes me wonder why an omnipotent God would allow conception from rape anyway?). And why would he allow an embryo to end up in the wrong place ie ectopic pregnancy?

defunctedusername · 07/04/2016 19:46

No amount of logic will convince someone, that believes in an irrational deity, of the truth. The fact that the op has been made to feel guilty about trying to have a child is enough to show that a catholic god cannot be a good god.

Following a lot of American christians, abortion should be a criminal offensive. Therefore anyone having IVF is potentially killing embryos and should be put in prison for attempted murder. NONSENSE.

All cells are alive, every atom in the universe could be considered to be alive. What does that word 'life' actually mean? I see it implied that embryos are the start of life. After fertilization the blastocyst does not become an embryo until about day 10 to 12. Embryos aren't then viable outside the mothers wombs so it can't be considered independent life. maybe a parasite?. Embryos are a few cells, around one in four are viable to become fetuses so they cant be considered future life otherwise you would have to consider sperm as sacrosanct. So what kind of life? There is no central nervous system, no brain, no pain receptors. St Augustine didn't even consider the embryo to have a soul (what ever that means) until 16 to 17 weeks.

Most civilized societies have advanced their morale consensus of IVF and embryos above and beyond barbaric religions. Don't let indoctrination stop you from having a child, there are lots of books, phonelines and help that can start you on a process of deconversion that will free you from all this guilt that has been forced on you.

dontcryforme · 07/04/2016 20:18

What's the biblical justification for opposing IVF?
What's the biblical justification for the Pope himself....?
Bitter water - an abortificant - is mentioned in the Old Testament, given out by priests, no?

Ciggaretteandsmirnoff · 07/04/2016 20:41

Lwegi I've been on MN for a few years now and recognise your user name. I've never seen you post such ignorant and offensive posts like you have on this thread.

Your wrong.

Lweji · 07/04/2016 21:21

It was only pointing out that creating a life doesn't automatically make the process ok. And it was in response to the comments saying that IVF created a life, so automatically it was fine.
I am pointing out that just because a life is created, it doesn't justify the process to create it.

For some people the thought of destroying an embryo isn't a problem. But for others is a problem. And to people who consider destroying an embryo as ending a human life, it's easily comparable to rape. Conversely, some people (ok, mostly some men) may not see forcing sex on a woman for her to conceive as a big deal.

This is why I chose an example that most people in our society recognise as wrong. Abortion and destroying embryos is not seen as wrong by many, but some people (and the Catholic Church ) do see it just as wrong. Surely you can understand this.

You may want to look at the argument rather than what your opinions on either subject are.

Ciggaretteandsmirnoff · 07/04/2016 21:32

It's not a really an argument based on true scientific facts though is it? Its the opinion of very biased people - mostly men.

Your likening of rape and IVF is awful.

Religious misogyny at its worst.

duckyneedsaclean · 07/04/2016 22:07

I really don't think she was likening the two.

I think she was trying to explain why "anything that brings life cannot be a sin" (I'm abridging) isn't necessarily true.

GertrudeBadger · 07/04/2016 22:12

Yes it makes sense to me that methods as well as
outcomes matter.

Cottonflossy · 07/04/2016 22:15

Is that why rapists rape? With the intent of creating a life? How can that possibly be likened to a woman trying desperately to have a child?

I'm bowing out of this thread now and I can honestly say it has confirmed for me that leaving the church was the right thing for me to do. Such morality and black and white thinking.

defunctedusername · 07/04/2016 22:20

Some of the posters on here have abhorrent views, I suppose they would support the attacks on Planned Parenthood clinics next.

defunctedusername · 07/04/2016 22:21

What happened to free will?, guess the veil is lifted.

pearlylum · 07/04/2016 22:23

I am struggling to work out who are the catholics on this thread and who are the atheists playing devil's advocate, ( forgive the irony)

Ciggaretteandsmirnoff · 07/04/2016 22:24

Any religion has more than a vested intrest in trying to turn people away from IVF as it shows that that the creation of life is a biological occurance and not Devine intervention.

I'm not sure where anybody has said 'anything that brings life cannot be sin' . Maybe I have missed it.

duckyneedsaclean · 07/04/2016 22:26

JeremyCorbyn no one had expressed abhorrent views, as far as I can see.

Ciggaretteandsmirnoff · 07/04/2016 22:31

I can ducky.

sparechange · 07/04/2016 22:31

Wow, I'm bowing out of this thread now.

OP, I hope you find the answers you are looking for, but I hope they don't come from people who hold opinions that IVF can in some way be morally likened to rape.

I have never been more sure of my decision to turn my back on the Catholicism I was raised in than when I read the frankly insane views put across by some posters on this thread.

dontcryforme · 07/04/2016 22:34

cigarettesandsmirnoff I believe it's my comment upthread about the aim of the IVF process - or any assisted conception - being primarily to create rather than destroy life, that has been twisted and 'abridged' to 'anything that brings life cannot be sin' by other posters.

Pearlylum I am neither a Catholic nor an atheist. I am a Christian, the reformed, progressive kind, who believes in a loving God, not a legalistic God who behaves like a demanding, petulant toddler.

Can any Catholic here answer what Bible passage (as opposed to papal missive) condemns IVF or other assisted conception please?

duckyneedsaclean · 07/04/2016 22:41

Sorry, I couldn't be bothered to scroll back. The point lweji was replying to was The whole process is about creating a life. I won't ever see that as a sin.

Anyway, it was a fairly poor choice of analogy, but nothing more than that.

The very basic catholic moral teachings relevant are that
A) children are not a right.
B) An individual life is created upon conception.
C) The process of IVF is sinful.
D) A child created through IVF is of course not sinful.