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Original poster

IVF and Catholicity

166 replies

RaisinGirls · 06/04/2016 08:42

I am really struggling at the moment and would appreciate any support you can offer. I have one DD but have also had 3 MC.

After much soul searching I have decided to go for IVF as due to my age I really feel like it's the last roll of the dice, and I would dearly like my DD to have s sibling.

I have now started IVF but can't shake the feeling that what I am doing is wrong as I am a Catholic. I feel deeply guilty by what I am doing and feel like I can't go to Mass anymore. Has anyone a perspective that can help me?

OP posts:
Ciggaretteandsmirnoff · 07/04/2016 00:30

*science

Primaryteach87 · 07/04/2016 00:52

I have devout Catholic friends who had IVF. They have not 'disposed' of any embryos and told me they plan to either use the remaining ones or donate them to a couple who can't have children. I think it's called 'snowflakes'.

GertrudeBadger · 07/04/2016 06:17

Gungdjur, is your DH against donation of them? Not sure howmany IVF clinics can keep them viable and donate here, perhaps there has to be demand? BadCatholic, the argument that it'd be preferable to wait until your ectopic pregnancy inevitably became life threatening wouldn't have crossed my mind either, it's not a condition that can resolve itself happily. I don't think you even have to believe in an afterlife or God to regret the destruction of unused embryos, they all have the potential to be a baby

BadCatholic · 07/04/2016 09:38

I agree GertrudeBadger - you don't need to be Catholic to prefer to avoid the disposal of unused embryos, but at the time I was thinking about it, a lot of the other concerns described in the Catholic teachings posted above (which I confess I did not read or research at the time or since, for that matter) wouldn't have crossed my mind as issues. That one, of course, did.

The ectopic pregnancy issue I only discovered long after the event when reading about Catholic issues around abortion more generally, probably after the cases in Ireland recently or something similar. Up to then, I would have assumed that it wouldn't have "counted" as an abortion due to the pregnancy being unviable (I did ask my doctor at the time if there was any way of moving the implanted embryo to another part of my womb but he said that just didn't work for all sorts of reasons). A very sad time which would not have been helped by worrying about whether I could also have been committing a serious sin. I pity people who are more informed than I was, or live in a country where such rules are part of the law.

BadCatholic · 07/04/2016 09:38

Sorry - straying off topic there.

GibbousHologram · 07/04/2016 09:48

I decided that if embryos were that precious God wouldn't let there be so many mcs.

But I'm not very good at religion.

pearlylum · 07/04/2016 09:53

gibbous- if children were so precious he wouldn't allow them to die either. So life isn't very precious?

duckyneedsaclean · 07/04/2016 10:03

To be fair BadCatholic, the ectopic issue is one which catholic moralists debate, and has no clear answer. The main thinking is that you can do something to help the mother which has a secondary effect on the embryo - so removal of the tube. However many argue that giving methotrexate (I think that's the name, from memory) removes the embryo from the tube to save the mother, rather than primarily destroying the embryo. I believe it is down to the individual's conscience.

Disclaimer - I haven't read about it for a year or so.

Lweji · 07/04/2016 11:04

if embryos were that precious God wouldn't let there be so many mcs.

By that reasoning nothing ever bad ever happened to anyone. And people wouldn't die.
There is a difference between consciously ending a life and a life ending because of a random event. Many MCs (or failure for an embryo to develop) happen because of genetic problems.

As for ectopic pregnancies, I'd put it down as in one of those instances where a life is taken to protect someone else's life. An ectopic pregnancy wouldn't be successful without the mother anyway, so I'd think it's perfectly reasonable to terminate it, rather than risking the mother's life.

scoobyloobyloo · 07/04/2016 11:13

This is a truly wondrous all loving god we must be discussing here...

So much guilt.

And as I sit here feeling the true wonder of the universe kicking away inside me - the result of 'sinful' IVF.

Where was god when my husband had cancer? Where was he for my two miscarriages following fertility treatment? And why did this God create man who was capable of creating IVF? This is some lazy kinda God.

Or perhaps he was just made up by some chaps a few hundred years ago as a means of psychological mind control. And you'll let that get on the way of starting your own family?

Lweji · 07/04/2016 11:17

Humans were capable of creating atomic bombs.
Is that good just because we were able to?

scoobyloobyloo · 07/04/2016 13:19

Think you missed my point Lweji.

Lweji · 07/04/2016 13:20

which was?

sparechange · 07/04/2016 13:35

Lweji and Pearly,
Have you actually had IVF? You seem to be awfully ignorant as to the process.

Embryos aren't 'inevitably' destroyed as part of the process. Some people might decide at the end their treatment journey to discard any embryos that remain once their family is complete but that is neither commonplace nor inevitable.
What on earth do you mean by that?

dontcryforme · 07/04/2016 13:42

Lweji so you're ok with taking a life to save another (ectopic pregnancy) but not ok with even one embryo being 'discarded' or 'killed' to create a viable IVF pregnancy?

dontcryforme · 07/04/2016 13:44

sparechange you're so right! Many IVF cycles lead to zero embryos being created so presumably the objectors here would be ok with those?! I posted a typical IVF scenario upthread to illustrate that the huge destruction of embryos that some here are going on about is not commonplace.

headinhands · 07/04/2016 13:46

Op I'm not a believer. I'm sorry your faith is causing you such angst. It's one of those examples of a situation that highlights a divide between a religion and your own logic. Are there any other times when you faced such a dilemma and decided that actually your reasoning was superior to what you thought the church's opinion was? I don't mean to derail just wondering if looking at the bigger picture of religion and real life experiences might help give you some insight?

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 07/04/2016 14:18

This isn't a question about logic but the grounds upon which ethical decisions are made. Christians are likely to be including the principal of sanctity of life into their decision making process. So the question of what to do with stored fertilised eggs is an issue. I suspect people of no faith are likely to cite autonomy as the ethical basis for their decisions as in it is my right to do what I want with my eggs.

Lweji · 07/04/2016 14:31

Lweji and Pearly,
Have you actually had IVF? You seem to be awfully ignorant as to the process.
Embryos aren't 'inevitably' destroyed as part of the process.

Did you read my posts? I didn't say it was inevitable. Only that it often happens.
What I did say was that killing of the extra embryos is what the Catholic Church mostly objects to. And that prospective Catholic parents entering IVF would have to be aware of the implications of producing at each time only the number of embryos that they were prepared to have as children.

Lweji so you're ok with taking a life to save another (ectopic pregnancy) but not ok with even one embryo being 'discarded' or 'killed' to create a viable IVF pregnancy?

Surely you can see how different the two are.
In an ectopic pregnancy both lives would be lost. By taking the life of the foetus in an ectopic pregnancy, at least the mother can be saved. Furthermore, nobody puts the foetus in the wrong place on purpose, which is what happens when embryos are created and killed if they are surplus.
Regarding discarding embryos, I don't think I said at any point whether I was ok with it or not.

headinhands · 07/04/2016 16:53

suspect people of no faith are likely to cite autonomy as the ethical basis for their decisions as in it is my right to do what I want with my eggs.

Well no it's a lot more sophisticated than that. It's about weighing up the good vs harm and choosing to do what causes the most good.

headinhands · 07/04/2016 16:56

And as we have already seen on this thread many Catholics have also settled on that model of ethical decision making over and beyond what they think is the Vatican's stance I suspect that's pretty much 99% of how all of us choose what course to take.

Op sorry to derail. I will bow out now and wish you all the best.

Cottonflossy · 07/04/2016 16:59

I don't think anyone who has been through the trauma of Ivf would have a flippant attitude "it is my right to do what I want with my eggs".

The whole process is about creating a life. I won't ever see that as a sin.

BeedlesPineNeedles · 07/04/2016 17:09

I don't know much about being catholic, but I do know a fair bit about infertility.

Have you had tests to find out if there is a reason for your repeat mc? Some tests, drugs and trying naturally could be easier to deal with. I know you said they were only expecting 1 or 2 eggs but have you looked into natural cycle ivf where they only harvest the egg that you would release anyway? No chance of any unwanted embyos being destroyed.

Personally I'm glad I didn't have to deal with all these issues on top of the stress of ivf. Good luck

Lweji · 07/04/2016 17:35

Mostly for thought nut

The whole process is about creating a life. I won't ever see that as a sin.

If a man raped a woman to get her pregnant, that he wanted to create a life didn't make it a good thing.
So, if someone is not happy with aborting or killing embryos, I don't see how the creating a life makes it ok.

Cottonflossy · 07/04/2016 17:45

That much be the most ridiculous comparison I've ever seen. A couple or single person choosing to have a baby can in no way be compared to a man forcing himself on a woman against her will.