IVF and Catholicity

[RaisinGirls]

I am really struggling at the moment and would appreciate any support you can offer. I have one DD but have also had 3 MC.

After much soul searching I have decided to go for IVF as due to my age I really feel like it's the last roll of the dice, and I would dearly like my DD to have s sibling.

I have now started IVF but can't shake the feeling that what I am doing is wrong as I am a Catholic. I feel deeply guilty by what I am doing and feel like I can't go to Mass anymore. Has anyone a perspective that can help me?

duckyneedsaclean

Why do you say children are not a right when our civilized society has decided that every woman in the UK is entitled to IVF as a right?

Where in your bible does it say that god creates life at conception? That is a very arbitrary moment, most modern morality and medical science doesn't agree.

Why is IVF sinful?

I thought everyone born believing in Catholicism was with sin, now your saying an IVF child isn't? WTF? That's an easy way around original sin!

I haven't twisted anything.

It's fine to believe that proper human life only starts when the foetus is capable of independent life outside the mother.
Or any, well, arbitrary point between conception and birth.

What is not fine is saying that any process that creates life is without sin.
Because that is what has been said. Perhaps the people who said it didn't quite grasp the consequences of what they said. But this is what what they said means. And if people actually think about it, it's the only conclusion.

You can believe than a specific process is without sin.
Fine.

But you can't say that because the end result is a good thing, that the whole process is fine (without sin, or whatever you want to call it).

This is not a point about catholicism.
It's a generic point on moral.
The end doesn't justify the means.

So, if you go through IVF and destroy embryos in the process, I'm saying it's fine to say that you don't see those embryos as human life. That is your belief.

But, if you see them as human life, you can't say that because you created human life, that it was fine to destroy them.

In summary, you can't use the end to justify the means.

You must think about the means and if you are OK with them.

I didn't say that anything that creates life isn't a sin though did I. I said the process referring to ivf.

You didn't use those words. You said the process created life, so it was ok.

What I intended and I am trying to explain is the logical consequences of saying this.

Yes I said the process, which I thought quite obviously related to ivf as we are on a thread discussing ivf.

Well Lewji I'm glad to say that your opinion doesn't really matter. It's not based on any scientific facts - just the thoughts of someone that sounds as if they have never had to use this amazing procedure.

like I said up thread - my left over frozen blasts will probally be given to science to help continue to assist families who can not biologically get to the point of conception themselves.

Quiet an eye opening thread on how narrow minded people still are in this day and age

Pope Francis is due to announce the conclusions of the two synods on family life

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35994408

JeremyCorbyn, I have answered the op on catholic teaching regarding IVF. I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I'll attempt to answer your questions.

Yes, society may believe that every woman has a right to a child, the church does not. Because a child is a human being with dignity, and not the right of anyone, but a gift. Much like no one has the right to a husband/wife.

The church teaches that the unitive & procreative aspects of sex are linked, and reflect the mystery of Christ & the Church (his bride). And so, anything which separates these is sinful. Masturbation, contraception, etc. IVF of course requires masturbation from the father. It also often leads to the destruction of embryos/blasts, or them being frozen for and indeterminate period of time, which is below the dignity which should be conferred upon them.

Yes, the child would have original sin, and a tendency to sin when older. I meant they would not be considered sinful due to the way they were conceived.

ducky so your saying that gay people should not have children?

Yes, society may believe that every woman has a right to a child, the church does not

That is the only factual statement in that paragraph - the rest is out dated biased opinion.

I struggle to take seriously the opinions of old rich misoginistic men linked to an organisation that has treated women and live children worse than dogs even in the last 50 years.

Could you just have two eggs fertilised and one or both implanted depending on how many become an embryo?

Yes, the child would have original sin, and a tendency to sin when older.

this

Wow, just...wow...

Ciggaretteandsmirnoff
You should read all my posts before commenting on my views.

scooby the idea that we're all born with original sin and a tendency to sin is not just a Catholic thing, it's central to Christianity. Raisin - I hope you're ok and that you get a lovely sibling for your DD, fingers crossed for you. I can honestly say to my shame that my 2 lovely dc are the only thing I've ever been truly properly grateful for in my life.

I have just gone over them lweji and your posts sicken me.

You liken IVF to rape and abortion. That's screwed up.

I've stayed out of the discussion because for me it's not a philosophical debate in an abstract way but something very real and immediate. I feel that the issues and perspectives brought up in the thread highlight why I am so conflicted.

I was only ever having naturally modified IVF and would never get more than one or two eggs which may or may not have been able to develop. I couldn't ever imagine having embryos frozen and not used but that is a side point to the central question.

As it is my scan yesterday showed that the only follicles which have responded are on my left ovary which is adhered to my womb and it's too dangerous and risky for my consultant to try and collect them.

Not sure how I feel about it all anymore

What did the consultant say about your future chances? I hope you get your longed for baby.

original sin and a tendency to sin is not just a Catholic thing, it's central to Christianity Sorry GertrudeBadger that's nonsense, I was brought up a Christian, not a catholic, and not only was original sin not a central tenant it was non-existant.

10 eggs retrieved
- 6 fertilise
- 4 survive to day 3
- 2 survive to day 5 (blastocyst)
Then either one blastocyst is put back in you and the other frozen, or both are put back inside you (if you are sure you won't want any more children) ever).

This is a perfectly typical scenario in which no embryos will be 'killed' or wasted.

But that could just as easily lead to 10 embryos surviving and having the dilemma of what to do with the embryos you can't implant.

That must be difficult to hear, RaisinGirls. I'm sorry I entered into the discussion really, as I'm sure it wasn't what you were looking for. I hope you can find peace.

Allegretto your story sounds tidy, but is often not the norm.

170,000 embryos are destroyed a year in the UK as a waste product of IVF.
www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/03/11/almost-170000-ivf-embryos-destroyed-in-britain-each-year/

With the best will in the world it is not always possible to use all fertilized embryos. My deeply religious niece now has 3 frozen embryos, they have been frozen for 8 years.
She has had a hysterectomy because of medical reasons, so will not be pregnant again. THe embryos despite still having the potential for life are too old to be accepted by the donation programme.

What does she do?

Raisingirls, I have just lurked rather than posted, but as another failed ivf Catholic, trying to make her own way through similar moral/philosophical tangles and sadnesses, I wanted to send you love and supportive hugs.

I have thought before about starting a Catholics with fertility issues support thread here, but have always feared that it would be overrun by argument :( I hope you are ok.

pearlylum - I was quoting a previous poster! I am in almost the same situation as your niece.

pearlylum
You are speaking from such a position of ignorance, that your points are utterly invalid.

The 'discarded' embryos number includes those which aren't developing properly and therefore aren't viable. Which happens with up to 1 in 3 natural conceptions.

So back to the earlier example
10 eggs retrieved

• 6 fertilise
• 4 survive to day 3
• 2 survive to day 5 (blastocyst)

Under your ridiculous and warped interpretation of the data, between day 1 and day 5, up to 4 embryos are 'discarded'
The reality is that those embryos stop developing normally and aren't viable, but you are attempting to twist this into something nefarious.
If you think this is an immoral waste of potential human life, I would be interested to know how it differs from the same process taking place inside a Fallopian tube.

If you are going to push your agenda, at least do us all a favour and not twist things, or at least apply a little bit of critical thinking towards the information being presented by a biased news outlet from a sensationalist and agenda-fueled source.

I mean this charitably, maybe another thread would be a more appropriate place to continue the discussion, if needed. This was about one woman's struggle with her fertility and faith.