IVF and Catholicity

[RaisinGirls]

I am really struggling at the moment and would appreciate any support you can offer. I have one DD but have also had 3 MC.

After much soul searching I have decided to go for IVF as due to my age I really feel like it's the last roll of the dice, and I would dearly like my DD to have s sibling.

I have now started IVF but can't shake the feeling that what I am doing is wrong as I am a Catholic. I feel deeply guilty by what I am doing and feel like I can't go to Mass anymore. Has anyone a perspective that can help me?

pearlylum you said ' Only collecting and fertilising one or two eggs would severley limit the chance of success for the whole procedure.' Yes, it would, but if that's what the patients want, to keep them in line with their beliefs, then so what? You also said 'The church tells us that life begins at conception-' - so what support does the church offer to those who suffer miscarriage and does it fully recognised miscarriages as being deaths and mark them accordingly?

No, I don't agree with the current abortion laws and time limits, but that's another thread.

It's not about failing to nourish an embryo though, they are all treated the same and some develop and some don't. I think it's your posts that are almost laughable actually. The op asked for advice and all you can do is reiterate the Catholic Churches quite frankly outdated opinions on Ivf.

No wonder congregation numbers are dwindling hey

The OP sounds a sensible woman, it's the church that's creating all this angst for her.

FWIW one of my MCs was a 'top graded' frozen embryo, one of a small number left from our fresh IVF cycle, that we used to try to have a sibling for our IVF child. Proof that not all embryos make it. We used our frozen embryos before trying naturally (and conceiving naturally, definitely far cheaper) for the very reason we didn't want our embryos to be wasted.

hi Raisin, i'm a catholic that had fertility problems too and everything Lweji said plus, I was very very lucky to conceive without having IVF but other help, but if I hadn't been able to I completely understand your decision to have it. In the US you can donate unused embryos, is that feasible here? Ultimately we'll all be judged for our many sins, people are not perfect and the desire for a child is a very strong thing.

about the intent behind the actions.
Normally, you wouldn't kill 10 people to have a baby. Considering the Church's stance on killing an embryo that is the equivalent. Intentions don't matter.

And for the Catholic Church it doesn't matter if it's an embryo or a foetus.

How do you view embryo donation, if it prevents embryos being destroyed? As a good thing, like adoption?
To be clear, the question was about the Catholic Church position. I'm not giving my own thoughts on it and I think I have been making it clear. That is another discussion to be had.
For the CC, it won't be great, considering the stance on medicalising reproduction, but it wouldn't be subject to excommunication, as is abortion.

If you are sad and down about the miscarriages and have a yearning for another child you should absolutely try ivf. Religion should be irrelevant in this. You must do what makes you and your family happy and complete.

I don't post normally on this board but the title jumped out at me. My very good friend is very religious. She and her husband could not conceive. Had all the tests. Only hope was ivf. Her husband was very keen but she couldn't/wouldn't do it for religious reasons. It destroyed their marriage. She is now late 30s and childless. She regrets the decision she made. She ignored her own wants and needs for the sake of her religion and she is torn inside now. It's heartbreaking. Don't make a decision you will regret.

My IVF babies are 14 now. I found the same struggle with my Church and faith. During my treatment and pregnancy my church attendance plummeted - the feeling of doing something 'wrong' in the eyes of the Church against my willingness to accept any assisted reproductive technique to achieve a pregnancy was strong.

My babies were born prematurely and before we were even out of hospital I phoned my Parish Priest and asked to meet him to discuss their Christening. During that meeting we spoke about my conflict. Can't / won't go into detail but at the end of the meeting I received absolution. One detail I can share is that I was honest about my knowledge of the Catholic attitude to IVF - I didn't claim to be ignorant of it.

If you feel you can please speak to your Priest.

I wish you all the best with your IVF

Cottonflossy, the OP asked for specific advice in relation to the Catholic Church position on IVF.
That is why the Catholic Church's position is being put forward and explained.

The Church is basically against it, but as sins go, the really concerning part is where extra embryos are wasted (as in killed). That can be addressed, though.

Or the OP can make a conscious choice to dispose of any extra embryos.

Regardless, OP, be clear that the Church is open to you (as per the Pope's words), even if communion might not be. In the same way as in any other situation (abortion, marriage if divorced, and so on).

Sorry but what's Catholicity? I only heard about Catholicism.

lweji I understand all that as I said it's something I have experienced myself. I just don't feel that copying and pasting articles on the Catholic Churches view on Ivf is actually giving advice. Obviously the op may feel differently.

The other thing is certainly the difference between Religion and Faith.

The Catholic Church position is an interpretation of the Scriptures. Others can interpret differently. The Scriptures themselves are an interpretation (several, actually) of how the people who wrote them viewed God. Each of us have to decide what we accept and how to lead our lives.
RaisinGirls, I totally understand your dilemma with religion and the Catholic Church, but the truth is that no human knows exactly what God wants.

BTW, having gone through some trouble conceiving (over 2 years), my personal position was that I'd rather adopt than go through IVF. But, I understand that for many people it is different.

OP, a perfectly possible IVF outcome is something like this:

• 10 eggs retrieved
• 6 fertilise
• 4 survive to day 3
• 2 survive to day 5 (blastocyst)

Then either one blastocyst is put back in you and the other frozen, or both are put back inside you (if you are sure you won't want any more children) ever).

This is a perfectly typical scenario in which no embryos will be 'killed' or wasted.

Have you discussed your concerns with your fertility clinic, as well as your priest? They can then try to manage your protocol as best they can. And like I said, hyperstimulation is best avoided in any case, due to the risks to you.

RaisinGirls, please don't stop going to mass. You shouldn't receive communion, but can still attend, and go up for a blessing.

And please do go to confession, ask your parish priest for confession with spiritual direction - this may be at a different time to normal confession - to allow you longer to talk.

The teaching of the Catholic Church has been discussed at length here, but it sounds like you knew this already. I won't go into it anymore.

My experiences of Ivf has been pretty much how dontcry has described. I've never had to make a choice regarding the destruction of embryos but according to pearl this is like having a newborn and neglecting their needs, she doesn't seem able to clarify her point very well between embryos naturally failing to develop and choosing to destroy embryos.

Having had a MC made me more likely to consider IVF to be honest, I lost a much wanted other child at a mere 10 weeks along as many do - the natural non-viability of some embryos in the IVF process didn't seem all that different to what can happen in your own body. What happens to the viable ones is a separate question to me. I hope this is helping you raisin and not making you feel worse, what a horrible position to be in.

Crikey, posted this and been in work all day. Never expected so many responses. I will read through them all and post again. Hopefully lots of advice and perspectives within the replies.

Thanks for all the contributions. It is difficult seeing the Church's stance in black and white, but as posters have said its not like I don't recognise there is a conflict between my actions and my faith. I don't feel able to speak to my parish priest, he is very traditional and conservative, although even that makes me feel guilty as I know if I thought he'd support my actions I would speak to him. So am I really just looking for approval / sanction?

With regards to my specific situation and the discussions about multiple embryos etc, that was one of my concerns. However, my specialist has explained that due to a number of factors - mainly to do with my age and the IVF protocol I am on - I am only likely to have one or two eggs he is able to collect. I have decided to get the embryos tested for chromosomal issues though, as that could be a reason for my miscarriages. Although, I have already said to my husband, and he agrees, that regardless of the results we would still get the embryo transferred. It would just help understanding why and what causes the MCs. Really, the chances of my treatment resulting in a pregnancy are less than 30% so from that perspective this could all be a moot discussion.

Obviously I am still feeling really torn about the IVF, I just wish I could go back to Mass but I really feel too bad about what I am doing and the Church's view to do so. Funny, but there's been lots of stuff I've done before which is against the church's teachings but it's never made me feel like this. Maybe it's because it's about human life?

I understand how you feel with doing things against the church teachings and this feeling different. For me it was too big of an issue to continue going to church. I also didn't have an approachable priest, I would of loved to discuss it otherwise.

I hope you come to a decision you're happy with. For me Ivf was the right choice and I don't regret it at all.

Lweji you're right, it doesn't work well as reasoning.

I actually think I'm a bit shocked. I've breached such a major rule and that I had no idea. Am I not supposed to take Communion then? I can't say I wouldn't do it again so I'm going to have to live with it, but I have to cop out and say that I can't honestly believe that God would judge me too harshly for what I've done.

RaisinGirls, I suppose the gravity of it is making itself clear to you, through your conscience. Going against that with full knowledge is a very difficult move, which (in my personal experience) is very hard to come back from.

You could go and speak to a different priest, if you don't feel comfortable with your parish priest. But yes, if you are just looking for a priest who would say it's ok, there's little point.

Just remember in the future, if you go through with it, no matter how hard it seems you can always come back.

Thanks for posting this, it's been really interesting reading.

We went into IVF rationalising it with the agreement that we would use all viable embryos. We had 13 eggs, 5 blastocysts on day 5 and the rest of the fertilised eggs had stopped developing as in died themselves. So we put one in and froze four. Very luckily it worked and we had our first child. came back two years later and defrosted one embryo which gave another child. Then we had a surprise natural pregnancy and one of our three children was diagnosed with a serious disability which hugely impacts all our lives.

So we now have a big problem in that we have three frozen embryos left but we both agree we can't handle anymore kids right now and time is ticking on...

However I do actually still feel that those embryos deserve a chance at life. My husband doesn't necessarily agree.

Sorry to hijack a bit but interesting to see this debated and I had actually thought about posting my own thread to ask for opinions.

Username says it all I think. I am a Catholic and had donor IVF some years ago. Our embryos resulted in one ectopic pregnancy and one DC. We haven't gone back to try again because of my age and concerns that if it worked first time we might be left with frozen embryos we couldn't realistically use. So I understand your issue Gungdjur. Is embryo adoption something you could consider?

For me, whilst I am broadly aware of the issues the Catholic church has over IVF, the only one I share is embryo destruction. I was somewhat shocked to discover that had my ectopic pregnancy not resulted in haemorrhage prior to the medical procedure I was due to have, I would have been guilty of having an abortion under Catholic doctrine. Being a Catholic can be a dangerous thing if you actually know the rules. Luckily, I didnt at the time.

Anyway, to give you another perspective I have resolved the conflict in my mind and continue to attend Mass and take Communion. As a cradle Catholic I feel slightly like the rules have been foisted on me though. I want to belong to a church and can't imagine joining another branch pf Christianity so have sort of fudged it. Not all that helpful I am afraid.

I've had one amazing beautiful and funny dd through IVF and now pregnant with my second IVF baby. Nothing about them is 'wrong'. How could something so utterly joyful and precious be a sin?

I'm saddened that this is actually a problem in this century. These are rules written by men - not God.

Good luck op

However I do actually still feel that those embryos deserve a chance at life. My husband doesn't necessarily agree

It's the reverse for us. My Dh sees them as ready made children, I see them as cells. We have just paid for them to be frozen for another year (2 left) but I think after that we will let them go to silence because with out the fantastic work the embryologist do we would never have the opportunity to have our beautiful kids