AIBU to think we need more ^inclusive^ education?

[LoveFoolMe]

AIBU to think we need more inclusive education? If children in a multicultural society such as the UK are educated together surely this promotes more tolerance and better mutual understanding.

So these proposals worry me:

Call to end limit on religious free schools

Considering how divisive and rigid religious attitudes can be, I think it's time to bring children from faith schools into mainstream schools and to encourage these children to mix with more diverse cultures.

Secular schools can still provide fact-based religious education in the classroom and would probably teach their students about a greater range of religions than a faith school would. Parents could, of course, provide a more personal approach to religion for their children outside of school hours if they wanted to.

Let's not further segregate our children by religion.

AIBU to think that reducing (rather than increasing) the number of faith schools in the UK would be far better for our children and far better for our society?

The only requirement for children to get into our school is to live in the catchment area.

is there preferred selection for CofE children?

DC last school was a C of E as was mine - a different one - both now select LEA - so it's the LEA criteria and nothing to do with faith.

That does seem to confuse a few parents who go on about their church attendance and baptism - it's not relevant.

New areas there were no places at nearest schools - however if we had been here at start school age doubtful we'd have gotten into nearest school with best results as it requires so many years of attendance at their local church as prof of religious aspect that is very high up on their admissions criteria. They control their own admissions.

I went to a C of E school not because I come from a religious family but because we lived rurally and it was the only school for miles. My DC first school was the catchment school and was consider head and shoulder above the other in the area for nice atmosphere and good teachers - the religious thing we put up with.

I understand the C of E has so many schools for historical reasons - people gave land for schools to the church I believe.

I don't think we need more segregation.

DC last school was a C of E as was mine - a different one - both now select LEA - so it's the LEA criteria and nothing to do with faith.

good. it's nice to see a few voluntarily (barf) accept the equality rules everyone else has to follow.

We should abolish all religions in all state schools (other than studying atheism and religion in RS) now that more people don't believe in God than do in the UK. It won't happen though as too many parents like Cameron, Gove, Blair have children in state religious schools.

In some parts of the country it doesn't matter - hardly enough children to fill places at local Catholic and some C of E schools in the NE where I am from and they take all comers just about. In bits of London it is utterly different.

Just playing devil's advocate, but do you think that putting children of all faiths or none in the same classroom necessarily leads to an inclusive educational setting?

I'm currently negotiating a day off for some of my VI form students, the ones that get a day off for Eid want to invite their classmates to their cellebrations.

Just as you won't go to the Catholic school if you're not in catchment.

My old school has 'feeder schools' - all RC, one of them 7 miles from the school. Non RC child living across the road can't get in but an RC child fro, another town can.

"The current government push of the Prevent strategy seems to have needlessly targeted some children from Muslim families who may now be feeling anything but welcome and included. Some families might feel that their children are better valued and accepted in a setting where they aren't under suspicion."

I'm pretty sure that religious schools attract a lot more suspicion and attention that regular secular schools (rightly or wrongly).

Of course faith schools should be got rid of. If people want to practice religion, do so at home. Or set up a private school.

However, just getting rid of faith schools would not in itself be enough, because most of the most segregated schools (like the Trojan Horse school) are actually just regular state schools in very segregated areas, not faith schools as such.

It's always best to check out facts that you've read in a Christmas cracker before making a fool of yourself on the internet

Who is that aimed at BoGrainger?

how many truly secular schools do we have

I don't think there're any in the state sector, EnthusiasmDisturbed, as legally they have to have an element of Christian worship. How that is interpreted though is up to the Head and, I'd imagine, the governing body and Ofsted.

There are no secular state schools in the UK. None. V

I find it very odd that people object to religious schools on the grounds of "inclusion" but don't object to schools which fail to include poorer students.

Objecting to religious schools on the grounds that faith is personal and has no place in state-funded education makes sense (though I don't agree).

"find it very odd that people object to religious schools on the grounds of "inclusion" but don't object to schools which fail to include poorer students."

Well, if there was a school whose admissions criteria included "rich people, then middle income people, then poor people" I think you'd find people objecting.........

"Well, if there was a school whose admissions criteria included "rich people, then middle income people, then poor people" I think you'd find people objecting........."

Like private schools then? Or state schools in areas with expensive housing who use distance from school? It is indirect, but it is still there. It doesn't seem to be any fairer to me. At least parents can actively choose to belong to a religious organisation, very few actively choose to be poor.

Just because there are other ways in which children are disadvantaged or excluded, it doesn't mean its ok for faith to be yet another factor.

Completely agree faith has no place in school selection or teaching (other than factual, unbiased RE).

And if we really want to make education inclusive, DfE and schools can stop penalising children of working parents and poorer parents too (ditch the craft projects and bake sales ffs, this isn't the 1950s, its not part of the curriculum).

Another poster said its like we're living in the dark ages. It does feel Victorian sometimes.

I find it very odd that people object to religious schools on the grounds of "inclusion" but don't object to schools which fail to include poorer students.

I don't think you can do much about private schools.

As for state schools with wealthy catchments, people above have objected and suggested solutions (a lottery system, for example).

Just because there are other ways in which children are disadvantaged or excluded, it doesn't mean its ok for faith to be yet another factor.

indeed. A better point.

I think one of the key distictions between private schools and faith schools is that faith schools are largely state funded. So children of the wrong faith or no faith have reduced access to state funded services.

From memory - all of the running costs and 90% of the capital costs come from the state for most faith schools.

notasgreenasimcabbagelooking Your school sounds great! I'd be keen on more like that.

I teach in NI... in an integrated school-a sector of school for "those of all faiths and none". I love it. It is the way forward! We don't brush beliefs under the carpet ....we talk about them, celebrate them but never present them as fact- even if we share that faith\belief. And religion is only a small part of what integration is about...it's about gender, ability, disability, race, colour, age etc etc..I love the fact that we are integrated.... I learn more and more every year!

redstrawberry some parents miraculously find jesus when their child is two. Weird.

sashh do you think that putting children of all faiths or none in the same classroom necessarily leads to an inclusive educational setting?

Yes - if handled in a positive way by the teachers.

Children who grow up apart are more likely to view others as 'different' leading to a 'them and us' attitude. Think of US racial segregation, South African apartheid or 1990s Rwanda.

These 'others' then become scape-goats when times are tough. Jews in 1930s Germany for example.

Growing up together and celebrating any differences children are more likely to realise that we're all human and that people should not be hated for their background.

However, just getting rid of faith schools would not in itself be enough, because most of the most segregated schools (like the Trojan Horse school) are actually just regular state schools in very segregated areas, not faith schools as such. TheNewStatesman

I agree. We need to integrate different communities. I love multicultural areas; we can all learn from each other and celebrate our cultural differences without stereotypes and violence.

thank you LoveFoolMe I thought that was the case

I am fully in favour of secular schooling but I can see the problems that will arise no worship, no taking account of religious holiday or practices, no wearing of religious clothing/jewellery

would children then be discriminated against or not because school would be treated differently to life outside school

maybe its time we just became a secular state

Just because there are other ways in which children are disadvantaged or excluded, it doesn't mean its ok for faith to be yet another factor.

Exactly.

Just because there are other ways in which children are disadvantaged or excluded, it doesn't mean its ok for faith to be yet another factor.

Yes, but it is accepted that parents should have some say over where and how their children are educated. If some parents feel very strongly that they want their children to be educated in a religious environment I think they have a good case. I quite like the idea that if your preference is a religious school then you go to the back of the queue for a non-religious school.

I do get the segregation argument, and agree to an extent. I just find it inconsistent when people object to faith schools at the same time as having no problem with private education.

"some parents miraculously find jesus when their child is two. Weird."

And some of them discover to their horror that their child needed to have found Jesus before 6 months...........

" I just find it inconsistent when people object to faith schools at the same time as having no problem with private education."

I suspect that there aren't many in that posterion. However, if there were, it would be entirely consistent. It is manifestly unfair that one group has access to a third more tax payer funded schools than another group- and that that disparity is embedded in legislation. Whether or not is would be possible to pay privately for education is another debate. We are talking here about state provision

I've just seen this:

Group complaints against faith schools to be blocked

This seems a shame. Who has the time to check that faith schools are complying with the leglislation? Why should it be up to individuals to report them?