AIBU to think we need more ^inclusive^ education?

[LoveFoolMe]

AIBU to think we need more inclusive education? If children in a multicultural society such as the UK are educated together surely this promotes more tolerance and better mutual understanding.

So these proposals worry me:

Call to end limit on religious free schools

Considering how divisive and rigid religious attitudes can be, I think it's time to bring children from faith schools into mainstream schools and to encourage these children to mix with more diverse cultures.

Secular schools can still provide fact-based religious education in the classroom and would probably teach their students about a greater range of religions than a faith school would. Parents could, of course, provide a more personal approach to religion for their children outside of school hours if they wanted to.

Let's not further segregate our children by religion.

AIBU to think that reducing (rather than increasing) the number of faith schools in the UK would be far better for our children and far better for our society?

'It's hard to discuss because people of no faith often don't have a deep understanding of any faith.' I think that's pretty debatable (as you've allowed). Very many of the atheists I know are, like myself, formerly people who had faith or were heavily involved in certain religious traditions.

The problem there is how can we tell whether a now-atheist person's morals are independent of religion or a result of their religious upbringing?

watched people are good people after all.

Scarily Brave New World!

This what happens when the church has redundant land and has the choice to really, properly help the local community or make as much money as possible. Given that the money to buy and build on the land in the first place would have come from the local community to the church it is even less moral. Basically the last remaining piece of derelict land in a conservation area was sold to the highest bidder, more flats (& DC)! This piece of land is attached to a primary school in an area short of places, parents had to campaign to get the council to force the sale to the school.
This is the reality of organized religion, say one thing 'look to us for moral guidance', do the opposite. I was first taught this aged 3/4 by our new vicar and have seen this time after time, DS 6 yrs old, has also just experienced this from his CofE teacher after refusing to worship in the only local school for miles. The church doesn't teach good morals, it teaches how to make excuses for bad behavior. Leave religious indoctrination to parents at home/church, stop waisting my DC's time.

I would imagine the organisation in charge of their assets would be run like a business Scaredycat. So I'm not surprised if financial advisers told them to sell it off to the highest bidder.

Obviously not good for the local community though.

Were they aware of the school's needs BEFORE the lobbying started?

The Church is a charity, it gets the tax rates of a charity, not a business. As such it the financial advisors should hold it's oh so important morals above purely making money.

Were they aware of the school's needs BEFORE the lobbying started?

I don't know the finer details, saying they didn't now would be pleading ignorance on their part, on the land was the scout hall, after that had been abandoned the land was used as a community garden until they were thrown off due to the sale, I recall some campaigning then for community use. Most importantly the school has the biggest shared border with the land, the school had several porta cabins in place in an area that had been struggling with school places for years. To have not known that the school needed the land means the church were willfully ignoring it's location, ignoring local news, ignoring it's moral duty to find out what was best to do with the land. This thread has constantly said religion teaches good morals, I'm saying religion teaches how to excuse bad morals.

It certainly seems that way in this case Scaredycat.

Have you ever looked into Buddhism Love? You might like it. rogueantimatter

I have rogue. I admire and share some Buddhist values. However I don't feel the need for a spiritual/sacred element.

I'd be interested to hear some more views on faith schools. If you've been reading this thread and quietly disagreeing with any of the comments then I'd love to hear why. I'm open to listening and learning.

Perhaps atheists who object to faith schools could set up atheist or humanist schools.

Because we want less segregation not more.

Then there is the practicality of proving you are atheist if the atheist school is over subscribed - perhaps questions on 'The God Delusion'?

We discriminate against children based on their parents wealth. Not as many people seem to have an issue wiry that

Someone sending their child to Eton doesn't take a place out of the state system.

Whatever happened to sunday schools where each faith can teach their own ideology in their churches, in their own time and at their own expense. School should be a place where all children learn about what makes them the same, not teach them about differences that adults want to put upon them and then try to make them tolerate each other.

Admission criteria based on faith, politics, ideology etc should be banned because children haven't chosen their belief system. They are just told they have the faith of their parents. Education should be secular until people are mature enough to chose their own beliefs.

RE should NOT be taught in school, it should be replaced with Philosophy and Ethics. Why do you need to know about mohamed to be tolerant of muslims, why do you need to know about crucifying jesus to tolerate a christian? If you teach children they are all the same and give them the knowledge to comprehend the difference between right and wrong then they will be tolerant people.

As far as RE teaching about the ‘main’ religions, it doesn’t. It teaches a historical fantasy of what religious leaders want people to think their religion is all about. It entrenches that they are the only religions worthy of state approval. It gives public acceptance that certain ways of thinking are moral, when at best they are questionable.

The reality of an RE class is that most children and parents treat it as as joke. After 3 years at secondary my DS has learnt nothing useful in the class. His opinion.

Bolognese you can teach children that they're all the same i.e. all valuable human beings, but they will still notice the differences in how people dress, behave, where they go at the weekend etc. according to the various beliefs. I think knowledge of why there are these differences, instead of having to guess, is a good thing.

As for the "main religions" isn't it just that they teach about the largest ones, rather than any particular value judgement?

thebiscuitindustry your completely missing the point. You are NOT taught to 'tolerate' difference at school because someone is e.g. a 'goth', an 'emo', a 'jock', a 'nerd', a 'weirdo', 'a teachers pet', a 'mummies boy', a 'cry baby', a 'pagan', a 'bully', a 'genius' or indeed a muslim or christian. Why do you think RE has any bearing on this at all, it doesn't.

Yes schools do teach the 4 main/largest religions, that is what entrenches the 4 main religions. What do you think would happen if a school taught 20 different religions. Answer the 4 main religious would have an apoplectic fit, how dare children have choice.

What exactly is it that you think is taught in RE that is needed?

I don't understand what you're getting at in your first paragraph there Bolognese

Answer the 4 main religious would have an apoplectic fit, how dare children have choice.

I don't think that's true at all, and it's pretty harsh to suggest all religious groups would object to choice I think it's far more likely that they'd welcome more discussion of what the various faiths (and indeed other philosophies) have in common.

Why do you want to sweep religion under the carpet and pretend it isn't there? It has been a major influence on history, literature, culture, the arts and much more, and is part of general knowledge.

There are many things learned at school which are about broadening your horizons instead of just specific things that are directly relevant/useful in your future job.

thebiscuitindustry My first paragraph is attempting to explain that schools dont attempt to teach tolerance of difference. RE doesn't teach tolerance of difference it just teaches the historical fantasy church leaders have of a particular religious ideology. The truth of present day religions is not taught, the reality of past or present religion is not taught. So I ask again what is the point?

I dont want to sweep religion under the carpet it an important part of our culture. However I do think its wrong to label children with the religion of their parents. And its most certainly wrong for tax payers money to support endorsing that discrimination.

So you would endorse spending a lesson on every world belief equally. Christianity, Paganism, Islamism, Satanism, Jedi, Buddhism, Humanism, Atheism, Taoism, Confucianism, Dianism, Scientology, Creationism, Catholicism... etc. I would agree to that, equality.

Another opinion about faith schools

My first paragraph is attempting to explain that schools dont attempt to teach tolerance of difference.

Bolognese, Isn't the first step towards tolerance, understanding?

LoveFoolMe, Schools dont teach understanding your neighbors in RE, they teach a historical fantasy of what religious leaders want people to think their religion was all about.

And even if they tried, would that really be a good idea, or just make things worse?

It's so long since I did RE/RS at school that I can't remember how it was taught. It's probably all changed since then anyway. Do teachers focus on religious texts and historical stories or do they include festivals and celebrations? The latter could be quite uplifting and inclusive. Do they allow children to discuss the moral aspects or is it very black and white rule-based thinking?

The tragic recent terrorist acts in Brussels, Turkey and Pakistan are further awful reminders of why we need to address segregation. I'm not saying segregation is the only reason for hatred and violence but it does contribute towards it.

A lot of the issues are covered in this Guardian article from earlier in the year and the comments' section makes for interesting reading.

Bolognese are you a teacher and therefore know what is taught in schools? Do you understand the new RE framework and how it differs from county to county?

If anyone's still lurking on this thread, what do you think of this? We need more religion in our schools not less

This article echoes my thoughts about integration

"Faith schools risk ghettoising children from a very early age, dividing them by their family's religious background. Any serious effort to tackle segregation must begin here."

Inclusive schooling

I'm still trying to understand the other point of view on faith schools.

Free-thinking or biased?

Teaching, like living, is always biased. Yes, we're human and may have different views. But why would we want to bias teaching even further?