AIBU to think we need more ^inclusive^ education?

[LoveFoolMe]

AIBU to think we need more inclusive education? If children in a multicultural society such as the UK are educated together surely this promotes more tolerance and better mutual understanding.

So these proposals worry me:

Call to end limit on religious free schools

Considering how divisive and rigid religious attitudes can be, I think it's time to bring children from faith schools into mainstream schools and to encourage these children to mix with more diverse cultures.

Secular schools can still provide fact-based religious education in the classroom and would probably teach their students about a greater range of religions than a faith school would. Parents could, of course, provide a more personal approach to religion for their children outside of school hours if they wanted to.

Let's not further segregate our children by religion.

AIBU to think that reducing (rather than increasing) the number of faith schools in the UK would be far better for our children and far better for our society?

Oh meditrina do you think there were no faith schools, no parents buying into catchment, no expressions of parental preference before the Iron Lady?

I'm '52 vintage, and a very good year though I say so myself. My parents were big in local Labour politics and highly articulate in four languages; English was not their native language but they both spoke it as if they had had a first-class education in it. So it was a worry for them when I hardly spoke.

And what did these old Lefties do? They pulled Party strings to get me into the Council's very, very popular nursery-school; some other three-year-old without connected parents missed out. And it started me talking 9and according to my sister I have never stopped since) and here I am, well educated and highly articulate in (only) three languages.

'Twas ever thus. Mrs Thatcher not even a Member of Parliament at the time. So don't blame her.

LurkedForver1 You want to punish the children for their parents' economic and social status?

Shades of East bloody Germany.

Not punish at all. As it would be attached to income, parents who found themselves in a cohort in the same boat could dip in to their pockets to top it up. Rather than the current inequality, where those on lower incomes rarely have any choice but to send their children to the worst schools, and no money to bridge the gaps. So just levelling it.

State education should be fair.

I am Christian and have great issue with religious schools, it certainly isn't something I would have chosen for Ds. In my opinion religious guidance is down to me as a parent not a school, I want him to grow up to know that religion is ultimately his choice and I don't feel that is something a religious school would help with.

we currently view children as the property of their parents...tbh I would rather we view them as property of the state than the property of their parents...though both of these are a million miles behind not viewing them as property at all....

having faith is as optional as being homosexual....around 60% nature and 40% nurture in both cases.

It is funny how we don't have schools that select primarily on the basis of the homosexuality of the parents....yet we do have schools that select primarily on the basis of the faith of the parents.

LurkedForever1 If you think HMRC would ever in a million years agree to tell councils what parents were (or claimed to be) pulling in you don't know HMRC!

Andrew no of course I didn't think that. And yes of course I understand that some families were able to pull strings for their choices before the introduction in the 1980s of parental preference as a formal part of the admissions process.

I suggested a list of steps as what would be needed to move from the situation as it is now in order to replace it with a properly inclusive system, if that is what is wanted.

Understood meditrina.

I regard your cure as worse than the disease but I know others will differ.

Hmrc wouldn't need to. You'd just say everyone was regarded as being in the high income and asset bracket until they proved otherwise. Proof of income isn't exactly hard. I'm talking about a sliding scale, and not one calculated to the last pound, or with an unrealistic cut off point. Just one that makes the private route the only means of buying a better school.

I like your approach Sirzy 'I want him to grow up to know that religion is ultimately his choice'

Related to this issue, I also think it's wrong that schools can opt out of parts of science.

School redacts exam to remove evolution questions

Inclusion doesn't work.

So many examples of this from other areas. It is just another way to put square pegs in round holes and fuck up another generation.

Have you got any examples?

I think that depends on whether inclusion means 'come on in strange people ..come into our school and do it our way' or if it means 'lets do it together with equal input from and respect from all participating traditions'

There is a lot of evidence that diversity in the class room improves the performances of ALL the students - but that assumes all pupils having equal buy in.

I don't mind faith schools per se, but admission is so often based on regularity of attendance at a place of worship, and that's not necessarily a measure of someone's faith. Many people do suddenly become religious attendees when school applications aren't far away. I think places at faith schools should be equally available to all.

I suggested a list of steps as what would be needed to move from the situation as it is now in order to replace it with a properly inclusive system, if that is what is wanted.

There is no such thing as "discrimination based on income". Private entities offer their services (phones, tvs, schools) to the highest bidder in many aspects of our society. that's not "discrimination".

As lurking mentioned the bigger problem is wealthy parents gaming the state system. That's a huge problem that needs to be fixed. but that pales in comparison to outright discrimination at state religious schools. it's an abomination in a country like ours. I think people who support this system should be ashamed of doing so.

So many examples of this from other areas.

like? kids don't care to go to religious school. Only parents do.

I'm also a committed Christian who doesn't like faith schools for basically the same reasons as sirzy.

As a science graduate it worries me that schools are allowed to opt out of parts of the science curriculum. It doesn't say much about the faith of the parents of they think learning about evolution will automatically turn their children into lifelong atheists.

People with faith often do better because their lives have meaning and purpose. Going to a faith school can teach children meaning and purpose and respect for elders all of which will help their education. Also going to church is a way of creating relationships between people so people are less lonely and are more positive and increases community generally.

However now faith schools are becoming an issue in that Muslim children do not meet children from outside their own faith appear not to be learning about gender equality through meeting children from other backgrounds.

The French and US systems which take religion out of school are better

Most people will act in the best interests in their children and family and will gravitate towards people like themselves. One of the jobs of a good government is to integrate people in order to have a well functioning society. One of these policies could be to allocate school places so that schools in the locality have a balanced intake so that ethnic groups and rich and poor do get to meet. Ideally each school would have enough range of children so that bright children could be stretched and meet likeminded friends. This is difficult at the moment as rich children and particularly talented children are siphoned off into the private sector.

There is no such thing as "discrimination based on income". Private entities offer their services (phones, tvs, schools) to the highest bidder in many aspects of our society. that's not "discrimination".

It depends whether you see children's education as a commodity, or an equal right for all children that isn't only available to the highest 7 per cent of bidders.

the thing about religious people is they're generally closed-minded when it comes to their religion (it's almost mandatory, and in some cases, is). Open-minded people who question faith-based institutions generally aren't welcomed

really? I am an atheist. I work in a faith-based institution. I have always been welcomed. And respected. No one has tried to convert me. Most people are happy to engage in religious-related debate with me. It is a very religious place to be - crosses in every room, prayers every day, mass and liturgies regularly. I choose to work there - I accept that side of it. In turn, I am accepted. Never seen even the tiniest bit of closed-mindedness or coldness amongst people I work with.

I object far more to single sex schools than to faith ones.

The reason why faith schools remain popular is that they often get much better results because the kids are taught to respect other people and its not all "me, me, me" and how to behave, which means that they can learn. Whereas so often children at non faith schools aren't taught any morals or why doing bad things is wrong, so they don't understand why disrupting every class is wrong or that the world doesn't revolve around them.

so often children at non faith schools aren't taught any morals or why doing bad things is wrong

What are you basing that assumption on?

" so often children at non faith schools aren't taught any morals or why doing bad things is wrong, so they don't understand why disrupting every class is wrong or that the world doesn't revolve around them."

This is quite an ignorant statement. Of course they are. They still have assemblies where moral issues are discussed, it's just not with a religious slant to the whole thing. and There's PHSCE too.

In fact I find that highly offensive - to suggest that kids who go to secular schools have no morals.

It's always best to check out facts that you've read in a Christmas cracker before making a fool of yourself on the internet