AIBU to think we need more ^inclusive^ education?

[LoveFoolMe]

AIBU to think we need more inclusive education? If children in a multicultural society such as the UK are educated together surely this promotes more tolerance and better mutual understanding.

So these proposals worry me:

Call to end limit on religious free schools

Considering how divisive and rigid religious attitudes can be, I think it's time to bring children from faith schools into mainstream schools and to encourage these children to mix with more diverse cultures.

Secular schools can still provide fact-based religious education in the classroom and would probably teach their students about a greater range of religions than a faith school would. Parents could, of course, provide a more personal approach to religion for their children outside of school hours if they wanted to.

Let's not further segregate our children by religion.

AIBU to think that reducing (rather than increasing) the number of faith schools in the UK would be far better for our children and far better for our society?

Lovefoolme, my comment about the Christmas cracker was to kp058 just to clear up any misunderstanding!

"I quite like the idea that if your preference is a religious school then you go to the back of the queue for a non-religious school."

I can foresee problems with this enforcing this unless you are forced to declare a particular faith a few years before school application time. What happens if the local faith school goes downhill? And the secular school improves and becomes very popular?

Suddenly it all gets very quiet on the "declaring your faith" front, I bet. People suddenly decide that actually a religious school isn't THAT important to them after all.....

Bring in a rule where you declare which side of the fence you sit on well before the application process begins. Would weed out the genuine church goers - the ones whose religion is a GENUINE part of their life and who really are serious about sending their child to a faith school, no matter if it takes a downturn in case of results. .

Would also solve the problem of the sudden interest in a religion in previously secular families a year before the application process.

Everybody happy.

Another point - You do know that some faith schools also cream off clever kids could be satanists as long as they pass the by entrance test exam, don't you? Yes. The faith is such an important part of their ethos. . Oh, but by the way, if you don't believe in our God you can still come in if you're clever and can make the school look good.

Wrong wrong wrong.

Thanks BoGrainger

Bring in a rule where you declare which side of the fence you sit on well before the application process begins.

That's starting to sound like labelling, categorisation and potential stigma again. I'm keen to avoid segregation.

Plus, people sometimes genuinely change their beliefs.

That's starting to sound like labelling, categorisation and potential stigma again. I'm keen to avoid segregation.

indeed. I don't think the issues that curly mentioned are that big. All you need is that on the Jan 15 application, people should have to choose.

I think the bigger problem is that the religious (or 'religious') wouldn't go for this despite still having more choice than me.

It seems to me that there are several issues.

1. Should taxpayers fund schools which their children can't go to.
2. Should children be segregated by their religion.
3. Should children be taught faith as fact.

My thoughts are that:

1. Schools funded by taxes should be open to all.
2. It's good to encourage children from a diverse range of backgrounds and cultures to learn and play together.
3. I'd like teachers and parents to explain that 'some people believe X, some people believe Y, no-one religion can claim to have all the answers'.

I know the last one's unlikely but the first two should be possible.

I'm not sure giving non religious parents the first choice at non religion schools works because (a) on average religious schools are more sought after and (b) might increase segregation

I think the bigger problem is that the religious (or 'religious') wouldn't go for this despite still having more choice than me.

True

(BTW I'm agreeing with redstrawberry's logic rather than saying it's a good idea.)

I'm not sure giving non religious parents the first choice at non religion schools works because (a) on average religious schools are more sought after and (b) might increase segregation

depends on what you mean by "works". My proposal would be there would be a box asking if you get priority at any school because of your faith. If the answer is 'yes', then non-faith schools put you at the back of the queue. (that is, there will be two distance criteria: the normal one, and then one for the leftover people who clicked 'yes').

While the religious would still have an advantage over the non-religious, it somewhat levels the playing field. Currently, a member of the CofE has priority at 1/3 schools over me.

no, if you aren't using your faith to get priority at any school, you tick 'no'.

Perhaps atheists who object to faith schools could set up atheist or humanist schools.

Hi all - we're going to pop this over to Philosophy/Religion at the OPs request.

Perhaps atheists who object to faith schools could set up atheist or humanist schools.

possibly, but one of the objections is segregation by parental clan (which is what faith schools do). The british humanist association rejected such ideas as one of the reasons for objecting to faith schools is the segregation.

"Perhaps atheists who object to faith schools could set up atheist or humanist schools."

But then would religion not be taught in any form at all? I am an atheist/agnostic but my ideal system would be one of ALL state schools being secular , all of which would have to teach RE in a "this is what Islam believes; this is what Catholicism is; the Jewish belief system is this; atheists believe in none of the above....." So that pupils are taught about other people's religions and to accept a wide variety of beliefs with informed and tolerant discussion.

The actual religion of individuals would be taught wholly through attendance at church services and clubs, weekend faith schools (what we used to call "Sunday school"), confirmation preparation; and of course within the family home.

I firmly believe that there is no reason whatsoever this can't be done. Pupils could still declare a particular faith upon enrolment to ensure that their particular religious holidays were honoured (as far as possible).

Supporters of faith schools sometimes shock me with their belief that they are in some way to superior to secular schools with their teaching of moral codes etc. It is such a closed and unwelcoming attitude. Very unchristian, actually!!

While all state schools aren't secular, the National Curriculum does require that a variety of religions are covered in RE.

Tin. I work in a Catholic secondary school. It's Roman Catholicism this and Roman Catholicism that all the way through. I think they must do about one lesson on each of the other religions in the whole of years 7-11, to cover that. GCSE RE is in Roman Catholic Christianity and Life or something like that and is compulsory for everyone whether they like it or not. Everything is taught as FACT.

I have seen some dodgy outdated catholic-based advice given to vulnerable youngsters. Eg there was a lesson which included "approved by the Catholic Church" contraception, one of the methods was the rhythm method. One of the boys asked the teacher, who was head of RE, did it really work and she replied "I think so, yes." [bangs head on desk]

I don't agree with it but I'm support staff anyway so keep out of it. But it has confirmed my belief that faith schools are wrong. They are divisive. The pupils at my school sometimes ask me if my own children will be coming to the school and I tell them that they wouldn't get in because I'm not a catholic and my kids haven't been baptised. You should see the look on their faces sometimes - I may as well have just told them that I worship the devil. I do feel it's a form of indoctrination but I love the kids and mainly love the job so I keep out of the religious stuff as far as possible (would be frowned upon if I didn't attend staff mass on INSET days though. .)

My suggestion of having humanist or atheist schools was mostly in response to a post bemoaning the extra choice that parents who have a religious belief have.

I'm torn about this one. It does seem divisive to have faith schools. But the right of parents to raise their children as they see fit should hold a lot of sway especially when education for your children is compulsory. I know in theory there's the option of home-educating but that won't be practical for most parents. I suppose in theory at least faith schools are less divisive than many other schools as they don't - in theory anyway - they're open to children who don't live in rich catchment areas.

I find it worrying that there are countries where freedom of religious expression is restricted, children may not go to school if they haven't been vaccinated and parents can be taken to court for refusing to present their children for extremely risky medical treatment. ( I'm thinking of the little boy whose mum wanted him to have an alternative to radiotherapy on his brain) Sometimes it does feel like children are the property of the state!

I have a number of atheist friends who have worked in faith and non faith schools. They all say they prefer faith schools, that there is a more caring family feel to the school. I think this needs to be present in all schools and not just faith schools. Then there wouldn't be a need for them. I am not tarring every school with the same brush here. I work in a non faith education setting. Care and compassion zero.

That's been my experience too Donthate.

Sad isn't it.

my ideal system would be one of ALL state schools being secular , all of which would have to teach RE in a "this is what Islam believes; this is what Catholicism is; the Jewish belief system is this; atheists believe in none of the above....." So that pupils are taught about other people's religions and to accept a wide variety of beliefs with informed and tolerant discussion.

Unfortunately RE is often taught extremely badly, particularly at primary level where teachers are non-specialists. Teaching tends to focus on festivals and stories, rather than core beliefs about, say, the nature of God or the practice of prayer.

For example, one of my children came back from school saying that he had been taught in RE that religious faith is believing things without any evidence. It is not. That is one view of what faith is (a view associated with prominent atheists) but it is not what the great religions say that faith is. They are more likely to say that it is believing in and trusting God. How can children from a non-religious background be expected to understand the world-view of believers when they are fed only one view about what belief is? And this is only one example.

I know MN is not a representative sample, but the kinds of misconceptions about the core beliefs of the main world religions that I frequently see in discussions about religion on here suggests to me that RE is not at all doing what it is supposed to do. This is partly because teachers are embarrassed and unsure about the subject, partly because they know little themselves, and partly because the topic has become (in some schools, at least) a bit of a minefield.

Niminy Great post! Absolutely sums it all up. I refrain from taking part too much in these threads as it is clear that many really do not understand stand what a faith based education is. If posters here think that the schools in the England are NOT secular but all religious, based on what is currently taught, then clearly there is a lot of misunderstanding. From a personal and religious point of view, most state state schools including the church schools are secular. You will not come out of any church school in this country understanding what a Christian belief truly is neither will you understand what Islam or any other religious is.

The reason why we are grappling in the dark to understand terrorism and struggling with integration is because we don't understand people's fundamental beliefs, it is not taught in any school despite what many think. What is being taught is complete rubbish! It is not the teaching of religion in faith schools that is the problem it is the lack of more depth of it, this would encourage fiery debates and a much better understanding of each other. For instance many don't u deer stand why some Christians will not engage in activities like Yoga, why do some Muslims prefer there children not to go on play dates? Why are ISIS bombing and claiming to be doing it in the name of Allah? Let's stop glossing over, 'Christianity is about loving everyone' no it's not! nativity stories, Diwali etc and discuss the deep rooted held beliefs that inform people's behaviours and dictate their way of life.

The U.S. That some are hailing as secularist education, seems proliferated with home schooling because of it's secularism in schools. It certainly doesn't seem to have integrated people. If religios teaching is banned in the U.K, it will just give way to more home educating, and I can assure you the teachers parents will be hiring won't the the non faith recent young graduate teaching R.S you have now, it will be a seasoned practitioner in that particular faith.

Great posts.

IMO 'religion' should be taught independently of and as well as individual religions. IMHO religions are very similar in their aims and ways of understanding the human condition.