AIBU to think we need more ^inclusive^ education?

[LoveFoolMe]

AIBU to think we need more inclusive education? If children in a multicultural society such as the UK are educated together surely this promotes more tolerance and better mutual understanding.

So these proposals worry me:

Call to end limit on religious free schools

Considering how divisive and rigid religious attitudes can be, I think it's time to bring children from faith schools into mainstream schools and to encourage these children to mix with more diverse cultures.

Secular schools can still provide fact-based religious education in the classroom and would probably teach their students about a greater range of religions than a faith school would. Parents could, of course, provide a more personal approach to religion for their children outside of school hours if they wanted to.

Let's not further segregate our children by religion.

AIBU to think that reducing (rather than increasing) the number of faith schools in the UK would be far better for our children and far better for our society?

It depends whether you see children's education as a commodity, or an equal right for all children that isn't only available to the highest 7 per cent of bidders.

No, it doesn't. Given then everyday everywhere money is exchanged everyone is engaged in "discrimination", you have just stripped that word of any content. if that's all discrimination is, why would anyone be against it? it's meaningless then.

That's not to say it isn't a problem. it's just not discrimination.

I have always been welcomed.

interesting. Would my children be welcome? Would they be have the same chance of entering the school?

so often children at non faith schools aren't taught any morals or why doing bad things is wrong, so they don't understand why disrupting every class is wrong or that the world doesn't revolve around them.

What a load of rot. There are great secular schools out there, and poor faith schools.

People with faith often do better

is there any evidence for this? Is it even true (that people of faith do better more often)?

how many truly secular schools do we have

ds school is not a CofE school but sadly religion plays too bigger part in assembly with Christian led prays daily

I would like all education to be secular. By being secular there is no consideration of religion (though it is still taught) this I am not sure many people would be willing to support this

interesting. Would my children be welcome? Would they be have the same chance of entering the school?

I think you can probably guess the answer to that. Yes, your children would be very welcome. No, they would not have the same chance of entering the school as a child of the same faith or other faith.

But all schools have catchments or an order of who has priority in terms of admittance to the school. Do you have an issue with the idea that children who live within, say, 1 mile of a school have a better chance of getting in that children who live 2 miles away? Or do you think the lottery thing is the way forward - if so, are you prepared to accept your child may only get into a school on the other side of town, giving you problems with getting them there on time when there is no direct bus route and the local authority has no legal obligation to either provide transport or cover the cost of transport?

Given then everyday everywhere money is exchanged everyone is engaged in "discrimination", you have just stripped that word of any content. if that's all discrimination is, why would anyone be against it? it's meaningless then.

Discrimination can be defined as the unjust treatment of people due to something about them which is beyond their control. Children aren't in control of their parents financial situation, and it's unjust to deny them a school place because of it.

I'm very glad dc go to a church school - government doesn't give enough money so they get extra from the church. When the school grew the school hall wouldn't have been big enough to fit the whole school. Government rules state a school hall only needs to fit one class for pe. I think the school all coming together is really important. Luckily the church funded an extension. It's a c of e va school. They also have Muslim pupils and teach about all faiths. We had a Muslim head boy a few years ago and I heard from a mum at a different school that we were all outraged at our school... nope, I never heard any grumbles.

"The reason why faith schools remain popular is that they often get much better results because the kids are taught to respect other people and its not all "me, me, me" and how to behave, which means that they can learn"

No. The reason why faith schools remain popular is that the oversubscribed ones can use a form of backdoor selection, so they get better results. Undersubscribed faith schools are no better or worse than any other sort of school in the same catchment.

'Back door selection'? I can only talk about where I work but the criteria is our faith, any faith, no faith. People of faith come from all walks of life....they are not all middle class and dying to get their kids into the best school academically....some actually want the religious side of things for their children and would choose it over 'the best school' regardless of whether they could get in or not. There is no back door selection.

Granted, a faith school in the middle of a council estate will likely attract less middle class parents than one in suburbia...but I struggle to see a back door for more academically able children.

Yes, your children would be very welcome.

Great! Glad to hear it. I am licking my pencil right now and will submit an application asap.

No, they would not have the same chance of entering the school as a child of the same faith or other faith.

hmmmm, wait a sec. that doesn't sound very welcoming to me.

Do you have an issue with the idea that children who live within, say, 1 mile of a school have a better chance of getting in that children who live 2 miles away? Or do you think the lottery thing is the way forward

as you are aware, schools have a certain capacity. while it's not a perfect way to decide who gets in, you do need some way to decide, and distance is a reasonable way in theory. There is nothing inherently wrong with distance (it works fine in other countries), it's that practically people game the system and it can be abused. In a perfect world distance would be a fine way.

There is no world in which discrimination based on religion is acceptable. In fact, protection against discrimination based on religion is a pretty solid british value. in almost no other sphere of life here can you discriminate based on religion. it is a protected characteristic, unlike distance.

Or do you think the lottery thing is the way forward - if so, are you prepared to accept your child may only get into a school on the other side of town,

you could easily have lotteries in London. Say distance makes it more likely, but it's not deterministic. Given that people live within walking distance of 8 schools, it could easily work.

but this answers the question of why distance is used in the first place: it's practical.

Our local CofE primary school has a very culturaly diverse population having Muslim, Roman Catholic and many many children who may be nominally CofE but have never attended a church service since their baptism. If as some posters have said it is a way to fill the churches why do we have an average congregation of 40 when there are currently over 200 children in the school, soon to be 400. The only requirement for children to get into our school is to live in the catchment area. It does provide a Christian education and this fact is made clear to prospective parents who choose not to send their children to the local state school which has the same ofsted grade as the CofE school. There must be a reason why parents choose a faith school when they never set foot in the door of the church. Incidentally both the church school and the state school have virtually the same catchment area.

I teach in NI...a truly "divided society" in terms of education! Every small town (or village!) may well have a Protestant AND a Catholic school!! But I teach in an integrated school-a sector of school for "those of all faiths and none". I love it. It is the way forward! We don't brush beliefs under the carpet ....we talk about them, celebrate them but never present them as fact- even if we share that faith\belief. And religion is only a small part of what integration is about...it's about gender, ability, disability, race, colour, age etc etc..I love the fact that we are integrated.... I learn more and more every year! I love how it's OK to ask a parent if they'd mind sharing info on how they celebrate a particular event, or about their family who live in Romania, or about the cochlear implant their child has etc. Some aren't comfortable about sharing or don't like talking to a group....but some love it! I teach p1 and we celebrate European languages day in Sept each year so i had asked a new p1 mum if she would tell us about Albania. She came into the room and cried because I has displayed her flag! She was proud, homesick, touched- and yet it was so e6aasy to do! Another child was adoptwd from China at 9 months. The photos and keepsakes she brought in would have made a stone weep! (And to those who say " my school is integrated...we have all sorts of kids there" I'd say look up the Excellence in Integrated Education Award... And see how well you fulill the criteria!! We are a LONG time post transformation to integrated status.....and the EIEA was still years of work!!)

where I work but the criteria is our faith, any faith, no faith.

how can you possibly justify the distinction between the last two? As you can tell, I think all this faith school stuff is the work of Satan, but how, other than sheer discrimination, should schools be allowed to prefer any religion over none? At least with our faith you have a sliver of an argument (it's our church, we teach our book, we want people from our parish etc etc etc).

but I struggle to see a back door for more academically able children.

you select for parents willing to jump through hoops for their children's education.

But I can't afford a house in catchment of my preferred school...so my child will never go to my choice of school. Just as you won't go to the Catholic school if you're not in catchment. Or the C of E if not in that catchment. I struggle to see the difference. Our parents make choices for us...being baptised is a choice that might open doors. It may well close others. That's life.

" the criteria is our faith, any faith, no faith."

Which means that those people, who are well organized enough and together enough to make sure their children go to church every Sunday, and are baptized and confirmed and jump through the faith hoops and all the rest get priority.

Which means that concerned involved parents get places. And the children of concerned and involved parents get better results. QED.

The only requirement for children to get into our school is to live in the catchment area.

is there preferred selection for CofE children?

Jump through hoops? Hmmm. Not round here. Faith is considered more important than no faith. Living nearer is more important than living further away.

How do you prove you have faith?

But I can't afford a house in catchment of my preferred school...so my child will never go to my choice of school.

applies equally to children of parents of any faith, which is the only legally protected characteristic (distance is not). the distance criteria is flawed, as I admitted, and am willing to accept something better.

Just as you won't go to the Catholic school if you're not in catchment.

not it isn't just the same. I could be God himself, but if my name was Allah my children wouldn't get the same treatment as Catholic Children at a Catholic school.

Out of curiosity, would you tolerate religious discrimination in any other part of British life? If so, what part?

You seem to think that different selection criteria are the same in some essential way. They are not. Selection by ability, distance and faith are all different.

Jump through hoops?

some parents miraculously find jesus when their child is two. Weird.

bert if it's for school purposes, it's very easy. Live in the parish, but far enough away from the hoi polloi. Have ample free time to turn up at church regularly, and attend every event going in the capacity of arse licker. Get oldest child in, and then decide you can pray just as well at home.

It's beyond me why the entrance can't be exactly the same as any other state school. Funny how nobody is remotely concerned about the supposed need for a religious school if it's in an undesirable area, but put it in a mixed demographic with great results and everyone finds faith.

It's beyond me why the entrance can't be exactly the same as any other state school.

self interest and privilege come to mind. nothing morally justifiable though.

I often speculate about the concept of faith hospitals. Happy to take out anyone's appendix unless there's a waiting list. Then, people of faith go straight to the top........

Faith libraries? People of faith get first dibs on the latest John Grisham?

I often speculate about the concept of faith hospitals. Happy to take out anyone's appendix unless there's a waiting list. Then, people of faith go straight to the top........

If it was a proper Christian hospital they would consider others better than themselves and ask to go straight to the bottom of the list.