Compulsive Worship or discrimination for my children at school...

[recall]

My three children attend a Primary school, it is not a CofE School, or any other type of faith school. They have an assembly once a week and "Open the Book" come and act out plays taken from the Bible. At the end, ask the children to prey. My daughter who is 8 said recently that "God does exist" "God is all around us" I asked her who had told her this, and she said it was the Christians in Assembly. She said she bowed her head when everyone preyed because she did not want to upset anyone.

I have spoken to the Headmaster regarding this, and he said they have to have 15 minutes of Christian worship a week.

I feel this is so wrong, that Christians are proselytising to children as young as four at school where I as their parent am legally bound to ensure that they attend. They are being taught individual's personal beliefs as if it is fact. I see this as a violation of their human rights - its is compulsory worship, they are too young to decide whether this is desirable. I am told that I am able to excuse them from these assemblies, but this is segregation and discrimination. It is heart breaking that children are being segregated from each other due to religion in school, a place of education. Christians are free to proselytise anywhere else, why must they do it in schools? This is dividing the community unnecessarily.

So this is my choice as far as I can see it....either I allow the compulsive worship, or my children are excused/excluded.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can come to terms with this ?

What is your understanding of segregation and being excluded? If the OP's idea of these words (and presumably yours) is applied to everything, boy would schools, workplaces, etc be in trouble. These places would be crippled and would not be able to function.

Obviously there are degrees of segregation and exclusion. But my child cannot fully take part in the life of a non faith state school without also taking part in Christian worship. That is a fact. They either take part in worship or are excluded from part of the life of the school. That feels like a big deal to me.

No doubt lots in this life are a big deal for you. Mole hills made into mountains. Righteous indignation all around.

If you don't agree with religion in schools I suggest you write to your MP. If you don't want them to take part opt out. Personally I can't understand why atheist parents get so upset about this. My eldest son has attended a mixture of CoE/community schools and he is a firm atheist. My youngest has attended the same schools and until recently believed in God but is now starting to question it

Over the years lots of parents (mainly atheist) have voiced their frustrations in the playground but I struggle to see where they are coming from. Children will form their own view regardless of their education/parental influence. Its as important as you make it. Im more concerned about the other aspects of education.

Withdraw them. I know you don't want to but others will almost certainly follow. You can kick up a fuss and demand the school stops doing the worship thing but you won't win while they are still primary school age.

I'm a non believer but don't actually mind this (too much) as somebody said up thread (and was criticised for it) Christianity is part of our culture and history, also we celebrate Christmas and Easter and love a nativity play or carol service and wouldn't like to see schools unable to have these things. At the same time I would rather they ditched the worship bit.

There was a legal case recently challenging the practice of prayers before council meetings, amazingly they lost and prayers still have to be said.

How would I feel if they were praying to Allah? Not happy, however if we lived in a Muslim country I would be OK with it.

OP why can't you counteract what your child says at home

Yes, some people do believe God exists?
yes, some people do believe he is everywhere

I would have my children stand silently, or say their own prayer( we are Christian) or withdraw them from the "compulsory worship".

Similarly, I have my son stand respectfully when the daily act of worship to the US flag occurs in schools here. I also don't make a bit deal if he wants to say the pledge even though I've said he doesn't have to, and asked his teacher if he can be excused. I can just educate him at home about what I think

I have no problem with them learning about the different religions of the world, in RE, that helps them understand how others think.

Be outraged. Nobody gives a flying fuck.
You still haven't told me what you'd do if your children end up having a Christian belief once they've broken free of your laughable outrage. Sling them out, disown them?

They either take part in worship or are excluded from part of the life of the school.

But they would be excluded from part of school life you don't want them taking part in anyway. What you want is the school to drop this practice completely regardless of whether the other parents want it or not.

Some of us do give a flying fuck, actually. OK, maybe only quite a small ff in the grand scheme of things. I definitely can't muster actual 'outrage' - I only go up to 'irritation & disapproval' on this one.

Collective acts of worship have no place in a modern British school - they exclude those of other faiths or none, & undermine & trivialise sincere Christian worship as practised honestly by believers.

I really can't see why anyone would support it. If I had any sort of Christian faith I'd be more anti than I am now as an atheist, tbh.

No problem with holding an opt in act of worship for children of any faith, fakenamefornow. Lots of schools have these type of clubs.

But assembly should be relevant to the whole community & not directed at a vocal minority.

When kids opt out of sports, sex education, or other school activities that are universally applied and parents can request to be exempt, would you feel outraged as well or is it just religion?

A friend of mine, when asked what her 2y/o would like for her birthday, asked for a Noah's Ark toy. So I asked her if she wanted the half set, just the ark and the cute animals, or the full set, with the millions of babies and children having their heads smashed against the rocks in the tumult, and the drowned and rotting animal and human corpses floating around?

You actually said that or you thought it? If you said it I would have asked you to leave my house as you are obviously a person prone to hysteria. Most normal people would have jotted that request down and toddled off to the Early Learning Centre

Speaking as an English teacher here (and am in Scotland, so different) I want kids to know as many Bible stories, plus Greek Myths, stories from the past, legend etc. I am fed up with references in literature (to serpents, for example, or Lucifer, or to Hercules, or King Arthur) needing an explanation. These things are part of British cultural heritage and learning about them (as stories, legends, myths, or as something to be believed) is important for those wanting to access our culture - Shakespeare, Chaucer, poetry such as Blake and Hopkins. Pupils often don't know basics - who was Adam? Why "Lord of the Flies" etc.

raven what exactly are you going to do about this seeing that you obviously feel so strongly? Approach the people who run your school? Start a petition and present it to Parliament? Lobby your MP? Or just bitch about it on an Internet forum and then once the thread is closed carrying on as you were, simmering resentfully about those awful bloody Christians polluting your child's mind with prayer and song.

"have no problem with them learning about the different religions of the world, in RE, that helps them understand how others think"
Neither have I. That is not the point.

I'm fine with having a polite discussion about it online, sebsmummy.

I'm a member of the National Secular Society & I hope to see change in my lifetime, if not my dc's school years.

Not much point me haranguing the school where I teach - we cheerfully ignore the law, including when I'm running assemblies .

My dc are at primary - they get the odd dose of Jesus, but there's quite a lot that's more inclusive too, as it should be in a diverse school.

None of which alters the fact that the law's an ass, but it's not in my top ten of things to get 'outraged' about.

Rose - also an English teacher & couldn't agree more about knowledge of myths & legends, including Xtian ones. V important to understand our own & other cultures. Knowledge is a completely different thing from worship, though.

I missed that post about the Noah's ark. Nobody is that thick to say that to a child surely?

Perfect!! So your school is getting it right, you are just supporting those on the thread whose schools are out of step with more modern assemblies?

The law is indeed an ass in lots of areas, some more important than others.

thehuman I think hope that TTWK said that to the Mother of the child when she suggested a gift idea. You can imagine the conversation that took place that even between the Mother and her husband when relaying that particular conversation!!

Agreed. But, (and, as I say, am in Scotland, so different) as long as the stories are being told as either "some people believe" or "here is a story" then it can only be positive. DH and I were very amused when our local priest (nothing to do with the school, just had an opinion) kicked up a fuss about wanting a nativity play, not a pantomime. The children in the school (tiny school, about 20 pupils) were consulted and agreed. They presented, "Jesus is Born to Rock Your World" as a musical with 3 Queens, Hell's Angels and Abba Songs. He nearly died, he was so outraged! The following year he did not try to get involved and they went back to Panto.

I'm joining in with a debate. That OK with you? Right then .

My school shouldn't have to break the law to apply common sense. Silly laws should be changed. That's something which is worth discussion IMO.

It's absolutely fine with me, I'm just relieved you and your children are happy and not having to pray unnecessarily.

Oh my dd2 quite likes a bit of prayer, of any denomination - she trots off to the mosque a couple of times a month with her best mate & her mum - she's picked up some Arabic script, which is rather cool. The rest of the family don't feel we need it in our lives.

Opt in worship's fine; if it enriches lives then that's great. Shame to cheapen it by enforcing it en masse in schools.

OP, I am right with you. This boils my piss, and Open The Book are blatantly a recruiting organisation - it's immoral.

Teaching children that nonsense is fact is bad for them - it undermines science and critical thinking.

I am extremely vocal about this with my kids and talk to them about the techniques these people use, so they are aware of them.

Both of mine can also quote chunks of Tim Minchin's work of genius "thank you God" (minus the swearing)

There must be a name for the sort of behaviour when somebody tries to dismiss another's point of view by using hyperbolic language to describe their arguments in order to ridicule?