Compulsive Worship or discrimination for my children at school...

[recall]

My three children attend a Primary school, it is not a CofE School, or any other type of faith school. They have an assembly once a week and "Open the Book" come and act out plays taken from the Bible. At the end, ask the children to prey. My daughter who is 8 said recently that "God does exist" "God is all around us" I asked her who had told her this, and she said it was the Christians in Assembly. She said she bowed her head when everyone preyed because she did not want to upset anyone.

I have spoken to the Headmaster regarding this, and he said they have to have 15 minutes of Christian worship a week.

I feel this is so wrong, that Christians are proselytising to children as young as four at school where I as their parent am legally bound to ensure that they attend. They are being taught individual's personal beliefs as if it is fact. I see this as a violation of their human rights - its is compulsory worship, they are too young to decide whether this is desirable. I am told that I am able to excuse them from these assemblies, but this is segregation and discrimination. It is heart breaking that children are being segregated from each other due to religion in school, a place of education. Christians are free to proselytise anywhere else, why must they do it in schools? This is dividing the community unnecessarily.

So this is my choice as far as I can see it....either I allow the compulsive worship, or my children are excused/excluded.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can come to terms with this ?

It don't you think it's wonderful that you live in a country where you can opt out? You realise under other regimes you have no option, you must practice the countries faith or face penalties.

Personally I love this country and it's freedom of choice. I just wish other people understood how fortunate we are.

sebsmummy- I have explained that "opting out" is not so simple.
I send my kids to school to learn facts, not hogwash.
My DD thought the tale of Noah's Ark was a history lesson.
We may as well tell the kids that the moon is made of cheese.

Personally I love this country and it's freedom of choice. I just wish other people understood how fortunate we are.

I'm alright Jack.

Right first off I speak as a regular church goer who sort of believes but isn't 100% sure. (Also please read my whole post before jumping to conclusions/commenting.)

I think Christian groups like 'open the book' coming in to schools are a BRILLIANT idea to teach children about the christian religion and that compulsory learning about religion is FANTASTIC. However - I do think groups should stick to the rules of how they present the stories, plus I think children should be taught about all religions (and none) in assembly and taught to respect all of those beliefs. This includes, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, paganism, atheism and any other major world religion. Then they get to make an informed choice. Children are naturally inquisitive and will question so let's present them with all we can now in a 'we/these people believe this, other people believe that' sort of way - it certainly (IMHO) SHOULDNT be 'this is what we believe abd it's 100% true.'

Hope that makes sense!

It does make sense, and in an ideal world it sound great.
Unfortunately RE at primary level RE is taught with a subjective slant.

Yes four and I do think that is a great shame. The law and schools should really move with the times.

From my POV my DH is atheist (well agnostic in that he says he can't say 100% there isn't a god but is as sure as he can be.) My DS went to church with me every week as a young baby, but from as soon as he was old enough to speak his mind has been allowed to chose - sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't come. I've always also been careful to speak to him in a 'this is what we believe and it may or may not be fact' way about religion - I am very lucky in that the junior church leaders at my church are very much like that too.

I get what you mean about 'opting out' too... It's not that you can't opt out its that you wonder why you should have to if I understand you correctly. That is a very good point.

Hey! I'm not a practicing Christian so no need to make the assumption that I am because I happen not to feel as strongly as you do about Christian teachings.

Yes they are stories, parables have moral lessons, it's interesting stuff and as a parent it is up to you to guide your children according to your faith and belief system. I expecting my son to take part in the nativity at school at some point and if he comes to me and says Jesus was born in a stable to the Virgin Mary I shall say 'yes, that's what Christians believe as it is written in the Bible'. If he chooses to take that as a history lesson then it's either up to me to say that we are not Christians and so believe that that story is just a story, written a long long time ago. Or if I decide I'm not fussed then at some point he will make his own decision as to what he believes.

As an atheist, who regularly tells the dc that the Bible stories are fantasy, I look at them like fairy tales. Bible stories are culturally relevant in the UK. I have no intention of teaching them to the dc, so I am quite glad that the school does. I would far prefer that these stories were taught as part of RE, in the 'Christians believe this' style. I would like state schools to be secular. But the assemblies can be a good way for them to understand the Christian belief system, which is important in this country. I just keep telling them it is myths and fairy tales at home. For me it is just putting the best spin on a poor situation.

"It don't you think it's wonderful that you live in a country where you can opt out? You realise under other regimes you have no option, you must practice the countries faith or face penalties"

Yes I do.

How is this relevant for me wanting my child to take a full part in the life of a non faith state school without being at least a nominal Christian?

I have already set out my stall on that one Bertrand. These schools are following National guidelines in line with the laws of the land. However if the people saying that it's up to the Headteacher and School of Governors as to whether these guidelines are adhered to then perhaps it's better to try and get some support from other parents and approach the school directly.

Sebsmummy What freedom of choice ? Cant you see - thats the whole point ? And at risk of appearing hysterical and making moot points, I don't see compulsive worship in schools as a free choice. If there was a free choice, I would be free to choose for the Christians to keep out of the school, but I am not.

I can't vote with my feet, I can't even vote with a pencil, because there are 26 Lord Spirituals that sit in the House of Lords. There is even compulsive worship in Parliament every day.

One of our school governors is an Athiest, and decided to sit in on the assemblies to monitor Open the Book, and was apparently satisfied that they stuck to their code of conduct. Thats great, but then how come my daughter came home and said "God does exist" "God is all around us" ? This system has failed us somehow, despite the Head and the Governor's best efforts.

The only way schools will be free from the requirement for compulsory Christian worship is by a change in the legislation.

I find it extraordinary that anyone thinks compulsory worship is a good idea. If I was a christian, I certainly wouldn't want disrespectful lip service being paid to my God.

sebsmummy - there are National Guidelines on all sorts of stuff in schools. They change all the chuffing time.

That argument is back to 'culture & tradition', which, as a PP pointed out, is shorthand for 'yeah I know this thing we do is irrational & unfair, but we've always done it so yah boo sucks'.

Until enough people decide to opt out that it makes the whole mess unworkable & lo, new Guidelines!

Unfortunately, being the first family in a school to opt out is uncomfortable & inconvenient. The easier route is 'meh, just let the godbothering wash over you, never did me any harm'.

If I were a religious schoolchild I'd be quite annoyed at having my act of worship overrun with hundreds of bored, sneery non-worshippers, tbh. Expressing one's faith should be opt in.

x-post Bertrand!

forced devotion
Ffs get a grip woman. If this is all you have to worry about consider yourself very, very lucky.
What will you do if your dc decide to adopt a Christian faith? Disown them?
The system has failed us Would be funny if it wasn't just so mind bogglingly ridiculous. Ask for them not to attend if it offends you so much. They'll make up their own minds eventually and be prepared for a view that doesnt match your own.

Sebsmummy Yes we do celebrate at Easter, and I tell my children of its origins as the Spring Equinox, and we eat chocolate eggs, and I explain that the Easter Bunny was the earthly symbol of the Pagan Goddess Eastre. I'll tell you about our Christmas celebrations too in a bit - Ive got to go and play squash - got a courrt booked

Thing is you give a shit and I don't. That's really not my fault.

If you came around my sons primary school getting excited about compulsory worship I would probably think you were a little hard of thinking. Sorry. It's just not something I want to get wound up about.

"Would be funny if it wasn't just so mind bogglingly ridiculous. "

Why is it ridiculous not to want your child to take part in christian worship at a non faith state school?

X-posted. Ah, so you are a practicing Pagan I assume? Well you dislike for having Christianity forced upon your children makes more sense now.

I still say just opt out or try and force change politically.

The UK is a Christian nation so something would have gone seriously wrong if the Koran was a compulsory read at school assembly.

I don't see the problem with this OP. You are clearly looking for something to be outraged about. Your kids are not being excluded and no segregation is taking place. Too much drama!

"Would be funny if it wasn't just so mind bogglingly ridiculous. "

Why is it ridiculous not to want your child to take part in Christian worship in a non faith state school?

Yes they are stories, parables have moral lessons,

Sebsmummy, please explain to me how the story of Noah's Ark is a moral lesson?

A friend of mine, when asked what her 2y/o would like for her birthday, asked for a Noah's Ark toy. So I asked her if she wanted the half set, just the ark and the cute animals, or the full set, with the millions of babies and children having their heads smashed against the rocks in the tumult, and the drowned and rotting animal and human corpses floating around?

Lovely story, Noah's Ark.

Actually, although it's all a bit imprecise, most of the data shows that more people regularly attend a mosque than a church in the UK, so if you wanted to provide a suitable assembly for the majority of schoolchildren whose parents have shown a demonstrable interest in collective acts of worship, you should probably have as much Koran reading as Bible stories.

Or you could just, y'know, leave it to parents.

Your kids are not being excluded and no segregation is taking place. Too much drama!

Geeky, have you actually read the thread and understood what is being debated?

As i said earlier- it's always Christiand who go on about "oh, stop being hysterical/dramatic/over reacting/ whatever- it's only a prayer" easy to say that when you've got what you want.