Difficult Questions about Christianity

[ReggieJones]

This is inspired by discussions on mn and also in rl about Christianity. Jesus' death for us can sometimes seem like an easy thing to explain and those of us who've heard about it for many years can become a bit complacent. But I also often find it a really tricky thing to get my head around, despite believing iyswim. It would be interesting to hear what questions people have and also how we might be able to answer questions in a way that's humble and not personally offensive (although Jesus does say that people will be offended by the Gospel.

What reason do you have to believe your God is loving?

HowardTJMoon Re So the philosophical equivalent of sticking ones fingers in ones ears and hoping for the best, yes? No exactly what I said. I trust God. I don't understand everything but I trust God and try to live my life to the best of my ability.

HowardTJMoon Re Fair enough. Thank you.

Headinhands Re What reason do you have to believe your God is loving? Because I have experienced him as such. And my belief is that the words in the Bible relating to this are true, because this is what I have experienced.

Head, what reason(s) did you have to believe that your god was loving when you believed in one?

I believed what people told me and confirmation bias took over from there 'I didn't get caught up in that car crash, thank you Lord' 'my uncle Bert's back is better, thanks for answering my prayer Jesus' and so.

that is what I have experienced

When you say experienced, what exactly? I mean I would say I have experienced my husbands love through him putting the bins out, going to the garage to get chocolate and so on.

Italian, do you think there will be people who don't believe in Jesus in heaven? The bible doesn't seem to think so. Do you think it is moral for entrance to heaven to be determined in this way? If you agree that it wouldn't moral to do it that way then you are morally superior to the morals outlined in the bible. If you do think the way the New Testament describes the process is a fair system, on belief in Jesus, than I am morally superior to you!

headinhands Re that is what I have experienced I have spoken with God and experienced love and peace, I have found peace and gentleness amongst God's people. I believe the Lord Jesus died on a cross for me, much like a fireman running into a burning building and losing their life in an effort to save a person.

Surely you do not want to limit all love to the purely physical putting out of bins and getting of chocolate?

Re do you think there will be people who don't believe in Jesus in heaven? surely face to face with him they will all believe in him!

RE The bible doesn't seem to think so. Lots of righteous people lived before Jesus, I am sure there are more people who will know him in all kinds of ways. I am sure God has it covered.

Re Do you think it is moral for entrance to heaven to be determined in this way? I am not sure it is my place to decide the morality of heaven.

Re ...than I am morally superior to you! Maybe you are morally superior to me. It would probably not take much to be so!

headinhands at times you seen quite angry about things in a calm and controlled way. Does it bother you that others seem to have a faith. I can assure you I am not using my faith to control or destroy anyone (not a very high bar I agree!) I don't take the Bible literally, I am affirming of gay people, I am pretty much a fuzzy, wishy washy Anglican these days. Why would you want to disprove my faith which gives me such comfort? I feel I am more use in the church than out of it.

fireman running into a burning building

A building he had set on fire himself.

i am not sure it is my place

But God require you to make a moral judgement to choose Christianity but now you are a Christian you are required to suspend your moral reasoning? Scary.

Anyway I'll take your refusal to pass judgment as acknowledgement that the system of heavenly entrance outlined in the NT is immoral and that you are therefore posses more sophisticated and advanced moral than those for the bible.

face to face with him they will believe him

Not but people that didn't believe in Jesus until they got there.

What bias did your being part of a religion confirm Head?

limit all love

How else do we show those we love? I have adult daughters and I have spent years making sure they understand that someone who loves you will demonstrate that love through action.

No I meant confirmation bias as in 'I got better because I prayed' when in reality colds are a self limiting illness that do get better usually.

Sorry maybe I don't understand the being part of a religion part?

that gives me such comfort

I can only assume you're here willingly and that like me truth is important to you.

quite angry about things

Does it matter wether I am scarlet with rage or have the demeanour of an angel? It's the points I am making that matter. It matters not who I am, what matters is what I say and that what I say is logical and stands up to scrutiny.

head who says he set the building on fire himself? YOU? Why should I take your views to dismantle my faith. It really is a waste of your time. I kind of feel I should stop replying as you are simply wasting your time here with me but I am not sure why you want to disprove my faith. Is it so hurtful to you for others to believe? I am a harmless wishy washy type! Honest!

Scary. what crap, I did not for a moment say I was suspending my morals, I said God gets to choose who goes into heaven. I have a demanding job, two kids and a taekwan-do green belt to earn, I don't have the free time to police the afterlife, that is not scary it is just fact!

Re Anyway I'll take your refusal to pass judgment as acknowledgement that the system of heavenly entrance outlined in the NT is immoral and that you are therefore posses more sophisticated and advanced moral than those for the bible.

You may take it as you like, but why are you so interested?

Re Not but people that didn't believe in Jesus until they got there. As i say I am leaving it to God, if that is OK with you!

Re ... someone who loves you will demonstrate that love through action. But I have given examples and you don't accept them. That is fine, but you just seem to want to win an argument, so I am not sure what I can say, you are filling in the blanks with what you think I believe. That doesn't seem like you are honestly questioning me but rather running through some sort of script. Believe me, I often question God, there are a thousand things I do not understand. But I am better, and my life is better with God in it. Simples.

does it bother me

I work with a few Christians. They would never guess I do this because I know there is a time and place for debate and this is it. I wouldn't walk into a church and shout 'there's no proof'. I wouldn't walk into your house and shout 'where's the evidence' while you were watching songs of praise. But on a debate thread like this then of course I will put it out there.

who says he set the building on fire?

Well he makes the rules no? He himself decided there had to be blood shed to make it possible for him to forgive.

Sorry Head I do not understand what Sorry maybe I don't understand the being part of a religion part? means.

Re ....that gives me such comfort... and I can only assume you're here willingly and that like me truth is important to you. Of course truth is important to me, I would not take comfort from something not true. But I can't prove to you it is true and you can't prove to me it is not, so we are left with what we respectfully, and respectively, believe. Yet you seem bothered that I, or others, believe it.

Re...quite angry about things.... Does it matter wether I am scarlet with rage or have the demeanour of an angel? well, of course it matters to you if you are angry and I guess for me I am just trying to understand. If I were trying to stop gay people get married or insist everyone went to church etc I could certainly understand anger, but I am not!

Re It's the points I am making that matter. It matters not who I am, what matters is what I say and that what I say is logical and stands up to scrutiny. It matters to me why you are saying it, do you have a personal axe to grind, it would help me understand why it matters to you. That is all. Not because I want to judge you, because I want to understand, that is all.

You say you are leaving it to God, as if you don't know what his thoughts are but you do from the NT. And it is scary to say that you are not going to make moral judgements about gods choices and just believe what ever he does must be okay because of his position. I thought he didn't want robots?

Nope it doesn't matter at all how I am feeling. It doesn't matter what my life experience is. I'm not concerned with what you have been through or how you are feeling but in the validity and sound logic of what you claim to be real. And that is what I respond to. You don't need to talk to me Italy, I can only assume you want to.

The thing that bothers me is that the book you claim to be inspired by a loving God portrays an unjust deity and that you are able to justify actions and systems that are deeply unfair.

help me understand why it matters to you

Truth matters. Imagine a maths teacher took the same line. It doesn't matter why the student is there just give them the facts. 2+2 = 4 regardless of how angry or happy someone is. And similarly you must feel that the truth of God is the same. You must think how God works is independent of who I am so bringing my character into it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

head I don't watch 'Songs of Praise'!

Re He himself decided there had to be blood shed to make it possible for him to forgive. That is a very simplistic take on things. I think on some level we as humans needs need a massive gesture, I know for a fact that the image of sacrifice is scary and at times weird but the image of sacrifice and rescue is very, very common in literature and in children's films etc. I can only trust God had made honourable choices for good reasons. Because of who I believe he is.

headinhands please feel free to be 'scared' if it gives you comfort. I am not talking about all moral choices, I am talking about the afterlife and you must realise I have no sway there! So no real choice in terms of leaving it up to God.

Indeed, God does not want robots.

You don't need to talk to me Italy, I can only assume you want to. Of course I want to, but I feel maybe you are not being totally honest with me. Why did you stop believing? I've shared with you a lot of stuff can you share that with me, please?

I do not take the Bible literally, I don't think God did all the things ascribed to him.

Re ... so bringing my character into it has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I am not reflecting on your character at all. I was reflecting that you were a bit angry with me, and I was not sure why. But I apologise if what I have said has offended you, as that was not my intention.

This is ReggieJones thread so I don't want to tie it up with me and you arguing all the time and I am off to do some work but I genuinely do not wish to upset you with my comments head.