Difficult Questions about Christianity

[ReggieJones]

This is inspired by discussions on mn and also in rl about Christianity. Jesus' death for us can sometimes seem like an easy thing to explain and those of us who've heard about it for many years can become a bit complacent. But I also often find it a really tricky thing to get my head around, despite believing iyswim. It would be interesting to hear what questions people have and also how we might be able to answer questions in a way that's humble and not personally offensive (although Jesus does say that people will be offended by the Gospel.

a loving God will welcome that child into his loving kingdom

But say that child dies 1 second after the cut off point and is worthy of eternal separation? Whereas another child dies 1 second before and goes to heaven. How is that just? Where is the cut off point?

that lead them to be very sure that he exists

Like all the believers of all the other gods that man has ever worshipped. Strength of belief is no indicator of the reality of that belief.

the view of people that have really thought about

You're admitting you haven't thought about it sufficiently for yourself. And there are many people who have come to entirely different conclusions than you or any of the people on the Christianity explored website even with degrees in theology and so on.

Watched the video about suffering. She just concentrates on human caused suffering and even her explanation for God not preventing suffering is unacceptable. Could you watch someone rape a child because you reckoned that if you stopped that happening then you should stop all negative things happening. And likening gossip to paedophilia is inexcusable. And she says that justice will be done because one day those who have hurt people will have to answer to it, only they won't if they are christians which is immoral if you ask me, that you can be let off just by saying sorry.

And it's despicable to level all bad things as equally bad in gods eyes. Imagine if our courts used the same logic and sentenced everyone to life imprisonment regardless of what they had done, so someone who didn't have a TV licence serving the same sentence as someone who killed children? It's nonsensical and illogical and if you saw anyone operating in the same way on earth you would consider them cruel.

I think it just comes down to faith headinhands. It doesn't seem logical and we don't understand everything. But for me the fundamentals of Christianity, Jesus dying to atone for everything I've ever done or ever done wrong in addition to experiencing God in my life are enough.

Anyone have any answers for why they believe although it seems illogical.

See I don't think anyone needs to die for what you have done. Even if you have done despicable things your punishment should be about making sure you can't hurt anyone else as is the case with imprisonment. And it shouldn't go on for ever, that's immoral.

I understand that you regret things you have done that hurt people, I do to, I have made amends where I can. I don't think anyone should be killed over what I have done, me included And I don't think I should suffer for eternity for not accepting a book's claims. Do you honestly think i deserve eternal physical torture for simply not being able to accept that God killed himself because of my mistakes? If you do that's barbaric! If you do then you are morally superior to the god you worship. And I'm certain it's the latter.

I meant if you don't believe that I deserve to be eternally tortured then you're morally superior

But reggie you're method for discerning what is the truth could lead me to believe in everything and anything whatsoever!

There is evidence of Jesus that comes from sources other than the Bible. Here is an example from Tacitus a Roman historian. He's talking about the Emperor Nero who blamed Christians for a fire in Rome.

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5}

There are other sources but too many for me to post here. A good place to look if you're interested in the work of Lee Stobel, an atheist journalist who set out to disprove the existence of Jesus.

In terms of the Bible, our accounts of Jesus come very a variety of places and people. Way back in the Old Testament, prophets such as Micah and Isaiah predict the coming of Jesus even saying where he will be born that he will be born to a virgin and that he will be in the family tree of Jesse/his son David. In terms of the New Testament we find out about Jesus from people who walked alongside him as well Luke the Doctor who was likely a child when Jesus was died but set out to find out more about this man as an adult and wrote his findings in the Gospel Luke. We find out about Jesus from people who initially rejected him and his teachings (Paul the terrorist and James, likely another son of Mary who initially disproved of what Jesus was doing).

For me its the Bible combined with my experiences of God working in my life and answering prayer that cause me to have faith.

But as we've already established you can't take your personal experience as proof unless you are happy to believe everything people claim to experience. As for the bible, I have no reason to believe the accounts of Jesus' miracles anymore than the miracles of Mohammed. Why should I reject Mohammed's miracles and accept Jesus'? How are you able to reject other religious texts/claims if your threshold for believing massive claims is so low?

You're absolutely right I can't take the personal experiences of others as prove for the existence of Jesus but I can take my own personal experiences (answers to prayer) combined with the Bible's teaching. The experience of others can help to support this but you're right alone they're not enough. As far as I'm aware Mohammed never died in my place so that I could have eternal life, neither did any of the Hindu gods or Buddha or anyone else I've ever come across. I know I need to be sanctified to be in God's presence, I know (as CS Lewis puts it) theres a price to be paid and Jesus is the only person I trust to pay that price for me.

ReggieJones you are giving some brilliant answers here.

It is great you started this thread and I hope you will get something out of it.

Please do not need to convert anyone here. But open discussion is great.

I used to post a lot more but there are a lot of people on mumsnet, with very fixed views one way or the other, which is fine, but you can expend a lot of energy and emotion trying to make your point and reaching a blank wall each time, which is fine, if you are up for that.

I did it a few years ago, I was always posting and getting into discussions. It's fine if you see that many people just want to try and disprove you, if you are up for that, great, if not just be wary.

You make a very good point when you say God did once walk on the earth amongst people in the form of Jesus and even then people struggled to believe in him, even some of his closest friends (eg Peter and Thomas) and particularly those who killed him. So even if God was walking around on the earth today there would still be people who would struggle to believe in Him.

That is why it is faith and not knowing.

mrstweefromtweesville re Why did God not want people to support gay relationships 100 years ago but now he does?
Understanding, like knowledge, evolves over time. Perhaps.

I think God does want to support gay relationships. I personally think the church got that one wrong, a false idea of what male female marriage is about and a false idea of what being gay is about. For thousands of years being gay was not understood. This link is very good.

BelindaBagwash I am so sorry that baby died. It is very tragic and I don't know why one baby might die and another who is ill might get better. I am so sorry. I am so sorry this has dented your faith. You asked Why should I forgive anyone who does bad things to me or my family? I don't accept apologies from people as they shouldn't have done those things in the first place. I think forgiveness benefits the one forgiving, it frees them from carrying round a burden of sadness and anger which they can feel powerless to over come. It in no way lets the other person off the hook, they are responsible for what they have done and if criminal they face consequences legally still, if a moral choice they may have alienated people and may end up with consequences from their actions but the person who has the power to forgive them may find that they will feel less burdened if they are able to forgive.

BigDorrit re your comments of I've only been observing this thread, but I do think that the OPs habit of saying "I don't know but watch a video of propaganda by someone else" is a bit...well...not very good, and hardly makes a convincing argument. I think that is a bit unfair. The OP is answering lots of questions and made it clear in her opening post that I also often find it a really tricky thing to get my head around, despite believing iyswim. It would be interesting to hear what questions people have and also how we might be able to answer questions in a way that's humble and not personally offensive she is not saying she has all the answers.

He refers to Christus, who was killed by Pontus Pilate. The Bible also mentions Pontus Pilate as the person who allowed Jesus' death. Christ is just another name used to describe Jesus. I don't think its a massive leap to assume that Jesus (the Christ) and Christus are the same person.

Thanks for the link Big, its a really interesting thread. I'm not sure if I've quite got to the bit you're referring to yet but I'll keep reading :)

ReggieJones the reasons why Christ went to the cross are very interesting. I have been a Christian 30 years and my view have not really changed that much, softened some I think. But the exact nature of what happened on the cross is something I really want to think about and understand. The nature of sacrifice etc. It is very hard in our current culture to explain what would have been very easy to explain in the first few centuries A.D.

I will check back and see if I can add anything, probably not but who knows. Bless you.

Sorry ReggieJones that was unclear about converting.....I guess in my post I just meant you did not need to feel the need to convert others, not that I thought you were trying to!

I will pm you.

Question: what's your / the church's attitude toward sexual responsibility in relation to sexual assault.

mohammed never died in my place

The only reason you think someone should die in your place is because you have been told that. Do you honestly think all of us deserve death for not being perfect? See I don't. I don't deserve eternal life for the good things I have done, and I know no one is saying that but it's not a dichotomy.

I find the idea that the whole of the human race deserves death to be unpleasant and barbaric. Why should I deserve death for not being perfect? I didn't get a choice wether to be perfect. And even then if someone did and then made a mistake I still don't think they deserve death. It's just ridiculous when you actually write it out using everyday language and examples and then you realise how it's so far beyond how you actually operate morally everyday.

Many religions of the time practiced sacrifice, it was mans way of appeasing an unseen God who had not sent the rains.

Italian thanks so much for your wisdom, I completely know where you are coming from and am not offended at all . I'm going to give this thread a bit of a break as it can be a bit draining and talking about God isn't the same as talking to him and resting in his presence. I believe He will reveal himself to anyone who genuinely seeks Him, and this isn't about knowing all the answers its faith. Thanks to everyone who's contributed, you've helped me think more deeply about what I believe and consider how I communicate these beliefs to others. Have a lovely Bank Holiday

Thanks ReggieJones I will look in again soon because I really do want to discuss the cross with others. Bless you.

Hi telephone. I'm not sure I quite understand your question. Are you saying that if a sexual assault occurred who would be to blame?

BigDorrit I've been reading the thread you posted a link to and I've found it really interesting. I've in the past looked at some of the historical evidence (non-biblical) for Jesus and have still come to the conclusion that he was God. But theres no evidence that can absolutely prove this, it really does come down to faith.

I know I've said it already. But if you're really interested in looking more into historical evidence (or lack of) of Jesus check out the work of Lee Strobel. He investigates these things really fully.