Difficult Questions about Christianity

[ReggieJones]

This is inspired by discussions on mn and also in rl about Christianity. Jesus' death for us can sometimes seem like an easy thing to explain and those of us who've heard about it for many years can become a bit complacent. But I also often find it a really tricky thing to get my head around, despite believing iyswim. It would be interesting to hear what questions people have and also how we might be able to answer questions in a way that's humble and not personally offensive (although Jesus does say that people will be offended by the Gospel.

Thanks for your answers Reggie

I think I've got to the stage when I realised I was going to church for a good singalong, chat and coffee afterwards which is not how it should be at all.

We've also had a vicar whose views on evangelism I don't agree with, but, as he is leaving soon (as he can't reconcile his desire for us to evangelise with the fact that the congregation are not happy to do this), I intend going back after he's left.

Hope those ramblings make sense!

Thanks for your response Belinda. It makes sense, we're all working out how our faith works iyswim. Have you read Joni Eareakson Tada's autobiography? She's great for not being overly theological or pushing faith onto anyone but telling her story of weakness and doubt and anger at God but still being able to have faith. I go back to her book again and again because its so refreshingly real.

Hi Reggie yes. What does the bible say about sexual responsibility & aggression (if anything)? Towards minors, towards people who are actively not giving their consent, or towards people who are not capable of giving consent. Not within a marriage context. What does it say about whose fault these acts are.

Also what does the bible say about evangelising/attempting to push people to convert to christianity, through fear (ie of going to hell etc).

The bible talks many times against abuse and against sexual immorality. Its generally considered that sexual immorality is any sexual act outside of a loving marriage. This would mean (I'm fairly certain) that any non-consensual sexual act comes under sexual immorality and is therefore forbidden by the bible. I'm not sure what you mean by blame, the bible refers to those who engage is these acts. I'm not sure who else you feel may be blamed, perhaps those who stand by and do nothing. Because the Bible tells us to love our neighbours as ourselves and treat others as we would like to be treated, I think it is strongly that we need to care for and protect each from harm.

Hope this helps. In terms of evangelizing the Bible tells us in 1 Peter 3:15 how we should tell others the gospel

15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

The Bible often tells us to go out and share the gospel (and God promises that he'll help us do this). The gospel is essentially good news, the news that Jesus died and rose again for us, to win us eternal life. So although hell comes into it, we should share this in a joyful way with as Peter says gentleness and respect.

It didn't help much, but thanks for trying. The people I'm thinking of do not seem to be of the opinion that this form of act constitutes abuse. Nor are they particularly respectful when they try to get people to come to their church. I'm trying to understand them but it doesn't make sense.

any sexual act outside of a loving marriage

But outside an unloving marriage is okay then? But seriously, consenting adults can have sex with as many other consenting adults as far as I am concerned. I don't think this makes them immoral what they do with their genitals with other people. It might be unwise in certain cases and show a lack of judgement/respect say if someone is allowing a partner to believe that they are in a monogamous relationship when they aren't but generally people can be good and kind and have lots of outside of marriage sex. Just because someone else is having sex with their spouse does not make them better. There is no logical reason why people should only have sex with someone they are married to. Or why having sex outside of marriage is damaging or harmful.

Christians used to think LBGT was immoral but now it's not. Why did God change his mind?

You are absolutely right we do need to fall back on faith because we don't have any hard evidence. But the bible acknowledges this over and over, it doesn't shy away from the fact that we are living by faith and not by solid, tangible evidence. This verse from Corinthians as well as the cross references at the side of the page are good examples of this.

I've never thought of having faith as being a virtue before. Its an interesting point. I've been dwelling on it on my commute this morning and I think that if I think of faith as anything I think of it as a gift. Its something God's given me rather than something rather than something I've worked at or earned. And having faith should never make us proud or boastful as the Bible teaches against these things and tells us to be humble. Having faith doesn't make anyone good or perfect because none of us are perfect except Jesus. Having faith in Jesus paying our debt for us through dying and rising again gives us access to God's perfect kingdom. This free pass though is still something I would consider as a gift rather than a virtue.

Sorry its a bit rambly, I'm having to think through the virtue thing a bit as I've never heard faith described like this before

Telephone if you're in risk from the people you describe or someone else is please get help that can't necessarily be found on Mumsnet. NSPCC, Refuge, Social Services, The Police are all places to go but don't let people justify abuse with religion.

headinhands any sexual act that's isn't within a loving marriage would be classed as sexual immorality. Sexual Immorality is just a slightly jargon way of describing sexual acts that are in the context that God intended them to be. God intended sex to be within a loving marriage. You're right there are lots of kind people who are having sex outside of marriage (including lots of my close friends and family) but these people aren't perfect because no-one is. Having sex only with your spouse doesn't make you a perfect person, because Jesus is the only good person but it does mean that if you are a Christian you're following Jesus by living the way He tells us to live. Christians believe that we should do what Jesus wants us to do because He loves us (He proved this by dying on the cross) and He knows whats best for us (Hes the wise creator of the universe).

You answered your question about God's indecisiveness when you say 'Christians used to think'. Christians change their views on things and often get it wrong but God doesn't.

Thanks Reggie I'm ok now. My family are a load of victim-blaming jerks though.

So what's the harm of having sex outside of marriage. Is it just that it upsets God?

I mean what harm would happen if a Christian was having sex with someone they're not married to. Does it just make God sad?

I think theres three main reasons why a Christian wouldn't want to have sex with someone they weren't married.

1. We love God, so want to please Him by following the rules He has set for us.
2. We know that God gives us these rules for our own good and we believe that sex inside of marriage is the best kind of sex. Why would we want to have something that was second best?
3. We believe that having sex with someone means becoming united with them in a powerful way. If this unity becomes broken and will ultimately hurt us, whether immediately or in the future.

Christians find the temptation of sex extremely difficult and many will stumble. If we repent and trust that Jesus has won our redemption by dying and rising again God looks at us as if we are pure, allows us to have a relationship with him and be with him for eternity.

Yeah but that unity could be broken in other ways? And besides, as an adult surely I am best placed to decide what to do with other consenting adults? What evidence of this harm do you have?

I think yes, the physical (or sexual) unity between a husband and wife can be broken in other ways, particularly emotional or physical abuse. But I think sexual immorality does pose a huge risk to marriages.

As a adult you are perhaps better placed as you were when you were a teenager or child to decide what to do with your body/life. But you're not better placed than God! I think that being the creator of the universe (and therefore of sex) trumps adulthood everytime!

I have anecdotal evidence and I trust that if God tells me something isn't for my best then it isn't for my best. But I don't particularly have personal experience, (I'm not married and never have been) perhaps someone will come along who does.

Telephone I am so sorry you have had difficult and painful experiences, please do not allow any one to blame a victim, and not to use religion at all to do it. It is plain wrong. I hope you are able to separate yourself enough from anyone who is being hurtful in this way.

any sexual act that's isn't within a loving marriage would be classed as sexual immorality

Reggie- you have some seriously warped views. Most of my sexual activity in my life has taken place outside of marriage. None of it has been immoral.

But I don't particularly have personal experience, (I'm not married and never have been) Are we to assume that you haven't ever had sex as you have never been married- and if as religious as you claim you wouldn't be indulding in such immoral activity.

Hardly makes you an expert in human sexuality.

And why is the church so obsessed with sex?

OK. My difficult question is this:

Why do Christians 'pick and choose' from the bible?

Why do they say sometimes "Oh, that whole thing about stoning? Umm,yeah, we don't stone anymore.

The whole shebang about shaving your head? It's OK, we don't need to do that any more.

Uhhh the whole sacrificing your first child to God? Yeah... we err 'reinterpret' that as 'bring them up to believe in God.

Divorce someone and remarry... adulterer! Yeah. Umm, that's out dated, we ignore that bit...

But then, what? you're gay? That's not Christian! Wait, what? You got divorced? That's not Christian! "forgive they neighbour" yeah, forgive peoople."

00100001 Good point, but I don't find these difficult questions.

Christianity is a deeply flawed human construct designed to control and give power to the few whose face fits. It is supposed to induce fear.

Otherwise we just have to suck it up ( we will get our reward in heaven if it's shit in this life.

That and god doesn't exist. Its all a macabre fairy story.

being the creator of the universe trumps adulthood

But you admit that what you think this creator wants has changed. 100 years ago homosexual activity was immoral and now it isn't. Gods idea of morality appears to change, or rather is dragged along by society rather than vice versa.

How you interpret the bible is through the morals you have absorbed in the time you have been on earth which is why a Christian today supports gay rights. So in reality as an outsider coming to Christianity I would have to decide for myself seeing that the bible could sanction all manner of views on sex and sexuality. And as you have I would use my already well established morality, which is what people outside of faith are doing anyway.

It's not like non believers are without means to make sensible decisions. The best way to make decisions is on evidence of what works best and what works best is education.

but you're not better placed than god

A God that tells his believers contradictory things about LBGT, women's rights and so on. He doesn't even know what his views are and changes according to the person asking him what it is. As I said his advice changes along with society, but is always behind and is forced to evolve as science gives us more understanding.

Then it isn't for my best

50 years ago you would have said that about gay marriage. What you think God is saying is down to your own ideas on morality. Put it this way, if you're just obeying someone that is not morality, because you're not using your reason, you're just doing what you're told. Morality means thinking and not just saying 'you said I mustn't so I won't'.

I completely agree that morals are separate from following God's laws. Having 'good morals' may help us to sometimes be kind and good (and education may help this) but the only perfect way to live is by following God's laws. Of course Christians fail all the time (in sexual ways and other) and that's why Jesus came, died and was resurrected so we could be forgiven and be allowed into his perfect Kingdom when we die.

I've not admitted that God changes His mind, I've done quite the opposite. Christians (or those that claim to be) change their minds and misinterpret what the Bible says. So God has always highly valued the rights of women but there's times where the Church (that imperfect human institute) hasn't. Today the Church is divided on the issue of same-sex marriage, some agree some don't but God's view.