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Philosophy/religion

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Original poster

Where does belief in God come from?

400 replies

TooBusyByHalf · 14/04/2015 18:35

I want to believe in God but I just don't. Can't make it make sense. Am vaguely thinking of returning to the church anyway, without faith, cos I like the singing and smells and all that but I think that would be dishonest.
Atheists, I know, ok? No need to explain why not to believe. Thank you.
Believers, why? Where does your faith come from?

OP posts:

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 17/04/2015 09:41

Oh capsium you've really lost me there - are you saying that genes can mutate or that they can't?

capsium · 17/04/2015 09:53

If you look up epigenetics, Oneflew as I understand it, it shows that the same gene can express itself in different ways (be described as being switched 'on' or 'off' for example) which has shown to be affected by environment/circumstance. A particular gene expression can also be inherited over the space of 1 and 2 generations but this gene expression can be changed over a person's life time.

Hakluyt · 17/04/2015 10:00

So if a gene expresses itself by curing a life threatening illness it's a miracle? What is it if it expresses itself by causing one?

capsium · 17/04/2015 10:08

Miracles are 'welcome' events Hak. I believe God is good and wants people to be well. Jesus healed. So gene expression working against someone's well being and not for it, I would not see as God's influence and therefore not a miracle.

Hakluyt · 17/04/2015 10:10

Oh yes, I forgot. God gets off the hook every time!

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 17/04/2015 10:14

Thank you for the explanation - I had heard of the on/off switching but not the term epigenetics. I think in any case me and my grandma would interpret it differently. I translate my awe at the "miracle" into an awe of nature and science whereas my grandma sees the same thing as a proof of God.

It's like Newton said, "the thumb alone would convince me of God's existence" - if you believe in God then everything becomes further proof of the wonder of his creation, whereas I'm happy to just wonder at the majesty of nature.

capsium · 17/04/2015 10:18

How could you forget Hak?

Of the hook is actually irrelevant for me as I would not even attempt to judge God's actions. I just believe He is good.

Jackieharris · 17/04/2015 10:24

My gran went to church for the social aspect. She was so busy with church stuff well into her 80s.

StellaAlpina · 17/04/2015 10:36

I'm not sure where belief comes from as I was born into a Catholic family in a Catholic country.

But as an adult I think I choose to believe. Have you ever heard of Pascal's Wager OP? I would rather live in a universe where there is a god/higher purpose and so I choose to believe/live my life like that.

As to whether the universe/god is 'good' I make the intellectual(?) argument in my head that everything is in balance but tipped towards 'good' (because good is self sacrificing whereas 'evil' isn't)

It's a wierd mix of woo and attempts at philosophy but it works for me

Although I'm Catholic and a regular church goer I don't believe in/agree with every single bit of Catholicism and happily mix and match bits of yoga/buddhism/wicca into my personal 'beliefs' in my head. I wouldn't mind you coming to church just for the social aspect at all

Vivacia · 17/04/2015 11:19

(Dione it's not mutually exclusive for me. I am against homophobia, slavery, misogyny, child abuse whilst also being uncomfortable with people who cherry-pick which parts of the bible they believe and sell this fluffy, un-dangerous version of christianity to unsuspecting people).

DioneTheDiabolist · 17/04/2015 13:17

That "fluffy , undangerous version" of Christianity is what's known in this country as main-stream Christianity Viv. It's what is taught as Christianity and is practiced by most Christians as Christianity. Are you saying that you would prefer and be more comfortable around slave owning, misogynist, homophobic pedophile Christians?

Vivacia · 17/04/2015 13:34

I'd rather nobody was religious or believing any combination of the bible.

How do you choose which bits of the bible to believe and which bits not to believe?

niminypiminy · 17/04/2015 13:57

I'm pretty sure you won't think this is an acceptable answer, Vivacia, but I'm going to post it anyway, since it's what I think and it's in line with the mainstream of Christian belief.

The Bible isn't one book, it's a library of different books written over a long period of time. Some of it is poetry, some of it is prayers, some of it is what is known as wisdom literature, some of it is prophetic writings, some of it is biography, some of it is letters, some of it is histories.

We read all these genres in different ways. They all have different things to tell us about the evolving relationship between God and humankind.

If by 'believe' you mean 'take literally without any consideration of context ', well no, I can't say that I do believe the whole of the Bible.

But since that's not what I mean, by believe that's not a problem for me. I believe that the Bible is the record of God speaking to and through imperfect human beings, and that it is full of truth and wisdom and mystery and beauty and horror. And I believe that we need to read it in an intelligent and informed way, not little bits but the whole of it,. I believe it's a well that always has water, and a candle that will always shed light. And I believe that to approach it reverently is to approach it with knowledge and understanding.

Vivacia · 17/04/2015 14:04

That is a very familiar position niminy and I'm sure a pretty popular one.

How do you decide which bits are truth and should be followed and which bits are to be dismissed?

niminypiminy · 17/04/2015 14:17

What do you mean by true?

I don't dismiss any part of the Bible - as I just said 'we need to approach it in an intelligent and informed way, not little bits of it but the whole of it'. That doesn't mean I think all of it is a factual record in the way we understand it now of historical events, or that it is literally written by God, or even that the original writers thought it should be taken literally.

Metaphors, analogies, parables, stories, poetry, myths ... all of these can be true. But not in the same way that a report of a court case is true, or a piece of investigative journalism is true, or a scientific journal article is true (and these will all be true in different senses too).

Vivacia · 17/04/2015 14:27

You may be against gay marriage, because the bible says marriage is between a man and a woman but you might not have a problem with people with dwarfism attending church, despite the bible saying they shouldn't be allowed in.

So, how do you decide which is guidance to follow and which isn't?

niminypiminy · 17/04/2015 14:34

As I said: "If by 'believe' you mean 'take literally without any consideration of context', well no, I can't say that I do believe the whole of the Bible ... I believe that we need to read it in an intelligent and informed way, not little bits but the whole of it." I do wish you'd read my posts.

Vivacia · 17/04/2015 14:58

And I'm not sure why you don't understand my question unless you don't follow any of it or you don't believe any of it.

DioneTheDiabolist · 17/04/2015 15:10

I'd rather nobody was religious

So you would prefer a type of monoculture, belief wise, where everyone believed what you believe. How do you manage in our multifaith, multicultural world? How uncomfortable does that make you feel?

Hakluyt · 17/04/2015 15:10

So how do you decide which bits of the Bible are those that need to be followed and which are just poetry? Lots of Christians believe that homosexual sex is wrong, for example, but the only biblical reference to it is in the OT and in a passage that prohibits lots of other things too. Jesus doesn't mention it al all. Why do many (most?) Christians follow that bit but not the rest of the rules in Leviticus?

Hakluyt · 17/04/2015 15:13

I'd rather nobody was religious either. Why would that make me uncomfortable with people that are? I'd rather people weren't Tories either, but I manage to interact happily with people that are.

DioneTheDiabolist · 17/04/2015 15:20

I have no idea whether you are uncomfortable or not Hak, I do know that Viv is uncomfortable, which is why I asked her about it.

Vivacia · 17/04/2015 15:38

I didn't say I was uncomfortable living alongside people with religious belief. I said that people cherry-picking makes me uncomfortable. There's a dishonest, uncertainty about it. "I believe the bit were Jesus is a prince of peace, but I ignore the bit were Jesus says he doesn't bring peace but comes with a sword to set daughter to be against mother".

Of course I wish there was no religion! That wouldn't mean everyone believing the same thing. I am not uncomfortable working alongside religious people.

Obviously some of them it's a bit uncomfortable - their religion means they don't think that I have the rights that I believe I have.

Vivacia · 17/04/2015 15:39

So, how do you decide which is guidance to follow and which isn't?

DioneTheDiabolist · 17/04/2015 16:04

Perhaps you could clarify Viv, what Christians are you comfortable with?

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