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Philosophy/religion

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Original poster

Where does belief in God come from?

400 replies

TooBusyByHalf · 14/04/2015 18:35

I want to believe in God but I just don't. Can't make it make sense. Am vaguely thinking of returning to the church anyway, without faith, cos I like the singing and smells and all that but I think that would be dishonest.
Atheists, I know, ok? Smile No need to explain why not to believe. Thank you.
Believers, why? Where does your faith come from?

OP posts:
Hakluyt · 16/04/2015 15:38

"I thought someone could be declared 'dead at the scene'."

I think you have to be pretty thoroughly squished or have had no heartbeat for quite a long timeto be declared dead at the scene nowadays.

fulltothebrim · 16/04/2015 15:41

capsium Is 'brain death' always tested for? I thought someone could be declared 'dead at the scene'.

Brain death is not always tested for, in cases as you describe it is not always necessary.
Some will be declared dead at the scene, with no need for brain testing.
Brains can only survive for a short time without oxygen.
If paramedics arrive on a scene where someone has been dead for a long time then it is safe to say that person will be deceased.
If a traumatic injury, say involving great loss of blood where it is impossible to restore circulation then again the brain will be dead if not then within a few short minutes- but nothing can be done unfortunately to save that alive brain.

In hospital in controlled conditions it is possible to keep someone alive without the need for a working heart- albeit in a temporary basis, but this could be weeks or months.
Indeed people have been awake, fully concious and communicative with a plastic and metal heart pumping for them.
These people are obviously alive- although they don't even have a heart!

Vivacia · 16/04/2015 15:49

I'm surprised so many of you believe in miracles. What leads to this?

I'm not comfortable with people saying I but in to these aspects of X Religion, but not these.

Hakluyt · 16/04/2015 15:55

Maybe we have to define miracle? (OP- I do hope you are happy with your thread being derailed like this....)

A poster on another thread once said that she knew God answers prayers because she was once completely broke, prayed for help and found some money. It struck me as strange that God would help one person by getting another person to lose money- but she wasn't having that.....

capsium · 16/04/2015 16:19

"1An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency:
'the miracle of rising from the grave'," (OED)

Vivacia, Hak, from the above definition I understand there is room for some interpretation as to whether something can be described as a miracle or not. Whether something is welcome is subjective, whether something is attributed to God is dependant on belief, whether something can be explicable by scientific or natural laws is non-absolute over time since our scientific understanding and understanding of nature develops and changes over time.

Believing in miracles, from my viewpoint, is not difficult. Can I welcome certain events? Yes. Can I attribute events to God? Yes, as I am Christian. Can I believe some things cannot be explained by science or natural laws? Yes, because there are things unknown in science and our understanding of nature is incomplete. The way I see it, the 'attributed to God' is the only aspect of a miracle that people require a leap of faith for.

DioneTheDiabolist · 16/04/2015 16:19

I'm not comfortable with people saying I buy into these aspects of X religion, but not these.

Why does that make you feel uncomfortable Vivacia?

niminypiminy · 16/04/2015 16:30

"I used to think that in order to believe in God, I had to actually hear a voice from heaven or something like that- I don't now. I also thought that if I believed in God and was a Christian, I'd have to subscribe to every aspect of a churches teaching, but I don't. I'm pro gay marriage, pro women priests/bishops/popes and do not think that using contraception or having an abortion should be classed as sins- I am a catholic, and I want the church to change to be more inclusive and humane."

I'd agree with all this!

Vivacia, I've never understood why atheists are so keen to say what it is Christians and other people of faith should believe. It's our belief, not yours; we are better able to say whether we are real Christians (or Muslims, or whatever) than you are. So as Dione says, why are you so uncomfortable?

capsium · 16/04/2015 16:31

Just as people's definition of life and death has changed since advances in medicine (brain death was not a measure used in the past for example) I can see whether something is considered a miracle is not absolute, in terms of people's perception and understanding, either.

Essentially a miracle is something that could only occur through the intervention of God but, even this, according to my belief gets fuzzy because at some point in time, I believe, God has intervened in everything that exists whether this involves natural processes that we can explain by science or not.

Hakluyt · 16/04/2015 16:52

Capsium- surely therefore you could think something was a miracle today, then tomorrow there's a scientific breakthrough that explains whatever it was and it therefore stops being a miracle?

There have, as far as I know, not be any "properly attested" miracles that cannot be explained by scientific methods anyway.

capsium · 16/04/2015 17:01

You could, Hak but then surely you see how this can still be fuzzy if you believe God has created everything, including the natural and scientific laws by which things work, essentially has had a hand in everything at some point in time.

And to an atheist the unexplained is just explained - human understanding of it is always imminent. A theist would, generally, accept there are aspects of the divine that humans are incapable of understanding without somehow connecting with the divine themselves.

capsium · 16/04/2015 17:01

^not explained. Typo.

Hakluyt · 16/04/2015 17:10

Could you give me an example of a miracle then?

Vivacia · 16/04/2015 17:18

Why does that make you feel uncomfortable Vivacia?

It's a good question. I think it's partly from when I was a Christian and people would say things such as wanting to go to have a church wedding and believing their granny was looking down from heaven but they didn't want the inconvenience of other aspects such as obeying the commandments or observing lent or whatnot. So, the same cherry-picking for their own ends.

Also, I think labelling yourself a Christian means that you sign up to it all and that there are responsibilities as well as rights. It's like people who join a Union, gain the benefits but refuse to strike.

I think that there's an air of dishonesty.

Vivacia · 16/04/2015 17:20

Also, when I was raised Christian it was a very warped view of Christianity. Nobody pointed out the shitty bits of the bible, or the contradictions or hypocrisy or plain nonsense. So when people say, "I believe in the warm, fuzzy bits and wasn't Jesus great?" I think they are misleading others as that's an honest view of the religion.

capsium · 16/04/2015 17:46

Hak

Jesus rising from the dead is an example of a miracle.

Hakluyt · 16/04/2015 17:51

Ah.

I meant one that was an event we all know happened. Or which there are proper eyewitness accounts of.

capsium · 16/04/2015 17:51

Vivacia

Signing up to 'it all' means a holistic understanding of all. There is layer upon layer of meaning in the Bible, historical account, symbolism, imagery, analogy, parables, contextual, universal. To understand it all is more than a life's work.

IMO dismissing the warm fuzzy bits and ignoring the complexity of meaning within the Bible is dishonest.

capsium · 16/04/2015 17:53

Hak there were eyewitnesses. What is proper, according to you?

Hakluyt · 16/04/2015 17:58

Ones that stand up to a moment's scientific scrutiny. But never mind. You know perfectly well what I meant. It woild be fqntqstic if Christians sometimes actually engaged in these discussions. If you don't want to engage, don't join in. Simple. But if you do join in, do it properly.

Vivacia · 16/04/2015 17:58

I think that's just a way of explaining the problems with the bible.

DioneTheDiabolist · 16/04/2015 18:20

What is unchristian about not observing Lent? AFAIK, nowhere in the bible is anyone asked to fast for 40 days. As for not observing the commandments, it is a given in Christianity that people are sinners but the church has a duty to be there for them. Christianity is a massive religion with many differing sects. So are you saying that you are uncomfortable with Christians who practice differently from the way you did when you were a Christian Vivacia?

capsium · 16/04/2015 18:27

Hak a miracle by definition is unexplained by science. Added to this is a miracle less of a miracle because it occurred at a time when science was in it's infancy? And I am attempting to engage in the discussion but you cannot apply today's 'rules' to past events. Also have you self appointed yourself the authority over what is 'proper'?

Vivacia

I think that's just a way of explaining the problems with the bible.

This stance just seems too dismissive to me.

Vivacia · 16/04/2015 18:36

What's the alternative caps? That people take it seriously and persecute women and homosexuals?

Hakluyt · 16/04/2015 18:37

Hak a miracle by definition is unexplained by science. Added to this is a miracle less of a miracle because it occurred at a time when science was in it's infancy? "
Of course it is! At one time people could have thought that the sun returning after an eclipse was a miracle- that doesn't mean it was one.

Have any miracles happened in living memory?

capsium · 16/04/2015 19:10

Vivacia I believe, if people took the Bible seriously they would not persecute anyone.

Hak there are many accounts of miracles, just do a search. I suggest you do your own search because I have a strong suspicion your criteria of what would constitute a miracle would differ vastly from my own. I explained up thread why applying the dictionary definition criteria, of what constitutes a miracle, can be 'fuzzy' depending upon belief. Only you know what would satisfy your own criteria.