Where does belief in God come from?

[TooBusyByHalf]

I want to believe in God but I just don't. Can't make it make sense. Am vaguely thinking of returning to the church anyway, without faith, cos I like the singing and smells and all that but I think that would be dishonest.
Atheists, I know, ok? No need to explain why not to believe. Thank you.
Believers, why? Where does your faith come from?

Do you think that Christians should persecute women and homosexuals Viv? Are you more comfortable with misogynist, homophobic Christians than you are with feminist and gay Christians?

How many bible quotes are against homosexuality vs those saying "homosexuality is ok"? How about abortion vs a woman's right to choose? Women's rights (or "whores" or "your daughters" or "your brides"?)?

"I explained up thread why applying the dictionary definition criteria, of what constitutes a miracle, can be 'fuzzy' depending upon belief."

How is "unexplained by science" fuzzy?

Vivacia I don't know, it is not what I read the Bible looking for. What I do know, is the overriding message of love and mercy in the Bible and how we should not judge each other or cause someone to fail by offending them, through our own judgement of them, but rather make decisions according to our own consciences.

"4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind....
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."(Romans 14:4-5 & 13 KJV)

Hak

How is "unexplained by science" fuzzy?

Because the dictionary definition can be taken further. Unexplained by science does not mean it will always be unexplained. Whether it is likely to be ever explained is dependent on belief. Whether something is fully enough explained, in every context possible, is again dependent upon belief. Added to this scientific results are rarely 100%, there are usually 'anomalies', whether something is an anomaly or a miracle is, again, down to interpretation.

What I do know, is the overriding message of love and mercy in the Bible

This is what I believed, it's what I was taught at my CofE primary school. So it comes as a bit of a surprise to find out that there's a lot of guidance on the correct way to own sex slaves. And when you think about it, it's a bit odd that there are rules against blasphemy and not child abuse. Because if you were a god, you think you'd have your priorities sorted.

I don't know where my belief in God comes from. I've just always been aware of God since I was a tiny girl, since before I had any word for God. (I was not raised to be religious.)

I once heard someone describe deep faith as being like hearing music from another room, that others cannot. I've just always been able to hear it, I guess.

As a PP said, either God exists or It doesn't. So it drives me batty when people compare numbers as in "oh X people are atheist now" or "well many people believe, so...". It's not a numbers game. Something either is or isn't. God isn't going to stop existing because atheism becomes more prevalent. Some things just are, and God Is.

That's why I think it's funny that people have told me that I can stop believing. I "believe" in It like I "believe" in gravity.

Viv, Jesus said to love your god and love your neighbour as yourself. It seems to me that you are cherry picking unpleasant bits of the bible and of your old denomination's dogma and saying that is what a Christian is and that is what you are comfortable with.

Are you really more comfortable with Christian homophobes and misogynists than feminist and gay Christians? Why?

I am more comfortable with an honest portrayal of the faith - "We believe in the bible and the teachings of Jesus. You should treat others as you would want to be treated. You should turn the other cheek. If you rape a woman than you should marry her and never divorce her".

Did Jesus say that a rapist should marry his victim?

It's OT, but we can both Goolge. Thankfully Jesus clarified a lot about paedophilia and rape and abortion knowing what evil would otherwise be done in his name.

Oh, hang on.

Ilovemargaretatwood and niminy, thank you for your thoughtful responses. If I ever do believe in god, any religion I may ascribe to, it will certainly only be on those terms -feminist, pro-gay marriage, pro-choice etc. I'm not sure about Jesus but that's for another day.

Cheerful that must be nice Some of us aren't so lucky!

Viv, You don't believe, I get that. What I don't get is why you are uncomfortable with people who follow Jesus's message of love your neighbour as yourself. The one's who don't keep slaves, respect a woman's right to choose, aren't homophobic and don't observe lent.

Why do they make you uncomfortable?

Would you be comfortable around such people if they weren't Christian?

TooBusyByHalf, I was half bought up within Christian faith, in the sense that my mom (while an ardent atheist herself) felt it appropriate to take me to (C of E) church, Sunday School etc, and let me choose for myself between the only faith she knew of, or none. No pressure from home for me. (My dad possibly has vaguely spiritualist leanings, though not enough for me to have even been aware of this, if I hadn't asked).
I was lucky enough to grow up in a church where the only (lay) preacher was a very ardent, and inspiring, socialist, who got all of us children interested in helping others, especially those less fortunate than ourselves - and that remains at the very heart of my view of what a proper Christian, and indeed what a proper human being, of any faith or none, is.
Then went through a messy divorce, turned away from faith (though not from my ethics, thank God), became happy again, turned back to faith!
My little family now is a Christian family, I think, but we are liberal Christians. To me being close to God means being close to being the best person you can be, and thus to loving, and working for, others, in both a familiar and a broader sense. We also love going to church, working for the church, knowing God in our lives, and all the goodness that that means/brings.
Sorry, OP, you asked a question, it seems I've replied with an essay! But good luck with your own personal journey, and I hope it brings you peace, understanding and joy.

Toobusybyhalf I wasn't sure about Jesus either at the start of my journey into faith (sorry for cliche). He kind of crept up on me in a way that I didn't expect. But anyway I hope most of all, wherever you end up, that you find some quiet, accepting, peaceful space to explore whatever you are yearning for, no matter whether it is God or not. (Hope = English for pray )

"Unexplained by science does not mean it will always be unexplained. Whether it is likely to be ever explained is dependent on belief. Whether something is fully enough explained, in every context possible, is again dependent upon belief. Added to this scientific results are rarely 100%, there are usually 'anomalies', whether something is an anomaly or a miracle is, again, down to interpretation."

I'm struggling to understand this. Could you give some examples?

Hak I strongly suspect you are attempting to string me along with your further requests for explanations and examples. If you don't agree fine, however there would never be any room for scientific theory to move on, develop and evolve if we knew all there is to know already.

Saying an event is miracle because it is unexplained by science, when scientific understanding is fluid, is problematic, to some, because there is an expectation of understanding in the future. To some, it is not problematic because there is not an expectation of full scientific understanding of the event. Therefore belief denotes whether something can be classed as a miracle - it is a subjective classification because our understanding is subjective.

I'm not trying to string you along.

But it seems to me that what you are saying is that something can be a miracle today and tomorrow a scientific breakthrough will explain it completely rationally. But that somehow it's still a miracle. Even though it no longer fulfils the requirements..........

So I must be misunderstanding.

But it seems to me that what you are saying is that something can be a miracle today and tomorrow a scientific breakthrough will explain it completely rationally. But that somehow it's still a miracle. Even though it no longer fulfils the requirements..........

My grandma is considered a medical miracle - she had a brain haemorrhage so severe that the doctors thought she'd never wake up but she had a complete recovery.

My grandma believes it was an act of God and says that when she was recovering she could feel the effects of prayer making her better.

The doctors who looked after her saw it as proof that they'd misunderstood the impact of various stages of brain haemorrhage and published their findings in a scientific journal. There is still no valid explanation for how a brain can suffer so much trauma over a medically significant period of time and return to full health.

Even if doctors find an explanation for the medical miracle, which I'm sure they will, it will still be a religious miracle to my grandma, and a miracle of good luck to our family.

Sorry, yes, Hak I am (sort of) suggesting this. I forget how counterintuitive my way of thinking is sometimes. This is why I used the word fuzzy.

The lines get blurry, for me, between miracle and non miracle because I believe God has a hand (has intervened at least at some point) in everything that exists. If you believe He created the natural processes, which we partially explain by science and that He knows how they can be superseded / overridden, whether something is supernatural according to our understanding ceases to be the question of utmost importance. It does not surprise me that there are things God can do which we do not understand, according to my belief. His intervention, whether considered miraculous or not, I am equally thankful for. Tbh when you consider how life is so fragile, so precarious, I think it is miraculous that we stay alive.

Now, I can see why you would think that was a miracle. But if tomorrow they discovered,for example, that there was a very rare gene which protected against this specific sort of brain damage and your grandma had that gene- would you still think it was a miracle?

Where does belief in God come from?
Cheese (the small & simple things in life)
There's got to be a greater power, in my opinion, to create a natural & hibitable environment, peoplkind's capabilities to farm, settlement and sustainability. If we are here alone then so be it but I'd rather feel the warmth from the sun as well as the cold from the night

I would not, but I think my grandma would. In her mind, having that rare gene would, in itself, be miraculous - perhaps a sign that her recovery from a brain haemorrhage was preordained or something like that. Sorry I'm not great with theological terminology, but I think something along the lines that capsium is saying.

I think, from my point of view, I see my grandma's miracle as an instance of great fortune - just because she's beaten incredible odds doesn't suggest that God must be involved, but it does mean that she's a very lucky lady. By that meaning of the word I will still think it's miraculous even when we have a medical explanation.

Hak when you consider that even genes are meta stable in their expression, as with epigenetics, you will appreciate there is still room for miracles.