Where does belief in God come from?

[TooBusyByHalf]

I want to believe in God but I just don't. Can't make it make sense. Am vaguely thinking of returning to the church anyway, without faith, cos I like the singing and smells and all that but I think that would be dishonest.
Atheists, I know, ok? No need to explain why not to believe. Thank you.
Believers, why? Where does your faith come from?

I am not sure how I can make that any clearer.

I don't have a religion. The suggestion that my wonder at the universe influences my value system is odd.

It's only religion that links the two.

I didn't actually suggest that evolution had a purpose in the way you are using the word- to imply a conscious goal. That is why I used inverted commas.

full But if, as you said it, your spirituality is the communications you share with others and your own personal view, how can this not be related to your value system, which you said stems from your involvement with your community and the interactions you have with others?

The commonality, it appears to me is that both your spirituality (as you describe it) and your value system (as you describe it) are rooted in your interactions with community.

So, Hak, Societies of other species are quite overtly organised to favour the survival of the fittest, their evolutionary 'purpose'. The most dominant males are the ones that mate with the most females of the group, runts of the litter are left to die, individuals fight for dominance, there is a strict hierarchy. How and why does our society differ?

"So, Hak, Societies of other species are quite overtly organised to favour the survival of the fittest, their evolutionary 'purpose'. The most dominant males are the ones that mate with the most females of the group, runts of the litter are left to die, individuals fight for dominance, there is a strict hierarchy. How and why does our society differ?"
Well, we have the leisure and emotional energy and resources not to let the runts die. And we have the emotional sophistication to be altruistic. Because we have bigger and more complex brains. Not, as I suspect you are leading me towards, because God.

Is this 'emotional sophistication' innate or learnt, Hak? Do you think our 'emotional sophistication' evolved? How? Is is still evolving and n what way?

It is a function of our sophisticated brains. The ability to make connections and be empathetic. I think psychologists and neuroscientists are still working on it!

Hak so if empathy and altruism are function of our sophisticated brains, do you think the capacity for empathy and altruism can be altered within an individual? Or do you believe everyone has a set capacity, for these qualities, which is innate?

People can learn to be more empathetic and altruistic. What are you driving at?

Just trying to get a handle on your world view Hak.

"I didn't actually suggest that evolution had a purpose in the way you are using the word- to imply a conscious goal. That is why I used inverted commas."

Ok, apologies, I misunderstood. Not surprising really, since language is inherently capable of producing multiple meanings - polysemic, as linguists say. I take it, then, you meant something like 'nature' (as in 'the nature of evolution is to be like this') rather than purpose? That's not the main meaning of the word purpose but I do see that you could use it like that.

I do hope that next time you're talking with a Christian and they say 'I didn't mean that, I meant this' you won't accuse them of twisting words. Wouldn't it be nice if both sides could accept from time to time that we have misunderstood what the other person is saying?

"I do hope that next time you're talking with a Christian and they say 'I didn't mean that, I meant this' you won't accuse them of twisting words. Wouldn't it be nice if both sides could accept from time to time that we have misunderstood what the other person is saying?"

Of course. I frequently say that I don't understand things and ask for clarification. However on this occasion I would have thought this sentence The "purpose" of evolution is to move towards the best, or "fittest" version of whatever organism we are talking about. Nothing more or less. Morally neutral. No will or intent would have made my meaning abundantly clear.

Hakluyt, evolution doesn't have the purpose of moving towards the fittest or best form. That's precisely what it doesn't have. for Darwin, it's an entirely chance-driven process, which has the result, sometimes, of producing variations which succeed better than others. These forms are in no send the end or purpose of evolution, because there is no fixity in the natural world as Darwin conceived of it.

'In no sense' not in no send.

Have people more rights to life than another organism?

This question gives me food for thought. Not having a God who I used to believe had provided us with animals for food I am still now working through what I feel my position should be/is with regards to eating meat and so on.

I tend to think our attitude to an individual having a right to live and need for protection is tied up with that individuals ability to think and feel which is why early abortion is preferable to a later one in my mind. As you can see I am still churning it though...

"rights" is a human construct.

No organsim has any intrinsic right to life or any more rights than any other.

We use penicillin and disinfectant, zit cream, weedkiller and herbiside.
Every step we take crushes microbes underfoot.

We have evolved an intellect wchich allows us to recognise suffering and feel empathy for others- but not the only animals to do so. Many other mammals are empathic too.

Many other mammals are empathic too.

I agree with you here full.

On the same theme I also find it interesting how complex the communication systems are of plants and animals - enough to be classed as a language IMO (linguists may argue but there is huge variance in human languages, the grammar that was thought to define language is not universal.) I also was fascinated the BBC documentary about how different animal species arrange their homes, from developing heating systems to decoration.

head Yes, the same question is one I ponder upon. I like to think, as part of my belief, that we should live in harmony with other creatures. There is the Biblical idea that we are given authority, but as I see it a good ruler serves those who they rule over fairly.

Caps thats interesting, how does this model of fairness work, can you give an example of how your model has led you to a different course of action than, say, someone who isn"t a christian has made?

head my model of fairness works according to my conscience, as it does with anyone. My conscience is informed by my Christian Faith, though, so that might be a difference between myself and someone who is atheist. As to any distinct discernible differences between groups of people, Christians and atheists, this is moot, since we are all individuals with different strengths and weaknesses and we react differently to what life can teach us. There are no examples since people who are atheists can have qualities in common with Christians.

"There are no examples since people who are atheists can have qualities in common with Christians

Big of you!

Hak Not really, just how I think. I felt it was important to point out because I have seen people challenged on here because Biblical values are not exclusive to Christians. I am just acknowledging I know this.

Human values are not owned by christians.

Never said they were, full.