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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Where does belief in God come from?

400 replies

TooBusyByHalf · 14/04/2015 18:35

I want to believe in God but I just don't. Can't make it make sense. Am vaguely thinking of returning to the church anyway, without faith, cos I like the singing and smells and all that but I think that would be dishonest.
Atheists, I know, ok? Smile No need to explain why not to believe. Thank you.
Believers, why? Where does your faith come from?

OP posts:
fulltothebrim · 19/04/2015 17:09

Capsium- do you think ebola is a manifestaion of Satan?

capsium · 19/04/2015 17:17

I don't think Ebola is good full, to the extent I am happy to eradicate the disease.

Do you think Ebola is good, full? If you think Ebola is neither good nor evil are you comfortable denying it life in people? Have people more rights to life than another organism? Do you believe in survival of the fittest?

fulltothebrim · 20/04/2015 06:33

You think ebola is evil?

Did god create ebola?

capsium · 20/04/2015 07:46

I told you I don't think Ebola is good, full. You've not answered my questions.

Do you think Ebola is good, full? If you think Ebola is neither good nor evil are you comfortable denying it life in people? Have people more rights to life than another organism? Do you believe in survival of the fittest?

fulltothebrim · 20/04/2015 07:52

I don't have a view of ebola as being good or evil. Morality plays no part in its existance.

Yes it's survival of the fittest. We kill every day. Even the smallest of movement- typing on a keyboard will crush microbes and bring about their death.
It's an inevitable part of life.

capsium · 20/04/2015 07:58

How far do you extend the concept of 'survival of the fittest', full? To humans?

Hakluyt · 20/04/2015 08:09

"Survival of the fittest" is not intended to apply to individuals.

capsium · 20/04/2015 08:19

So what groups do you apply 'survival of the fittest' to, Hak?

Hakluyt · 20/04/2015 08:21

Survival of the fittest is a term to describe the completely value neutral process of evolution by natural selection. It means that the organism most fit for purpose (not the strongest) will survive the evolutionary process.

capsium · 20/04/2015 08:25

Hak So you would not intervene to help an individual you fully expected was 'not fit for purpose'? What do you think our purpose is, Hak?

fulltothebrim · 20/04/2015 08:36

Humans are subject to evolutionary pressure as withg all living organisms.
We are not special or different.

capsium · 20/04/2015 09:34

So what do you think our evolutionary purpose is, full? How can we best fulfill this purpose?

Hakluyt · 20/04/2015 09:39

"Hak So you would not intervene to help an individual you fully expected was 'not fit for purpose'? What do you think our purpose is, Hak?" Of course I would. The phrase does not apply to individuals. Our evolutionary "purpose" is different from our individual or societal purpose. The "purpose" of evolution is to move towards the best, or "fittest" version of whatever organism we are talking about. Nothing more or less. Morally neutral. No will or intent.

capsium · 20/04/2015 09:47

Hak Societies of other species are quite overtly organised to favour the survival of the fittest, their 'evolutionary purpose'. The most dominant males are the ones that mate with the most females of the group, runts of the litter are left to die, individuals fight for dominance, there is a strict hierarchy. How and why does our society differ?

capsium · 20/04/2015 09:53

The phrase does not apply to individuals.

What groups does 'survival of the fittest apply' to?

Our evolutionary "purpose" is different from our individual or societal purpose. The "purpose" of evolution is to move towards the best, or "fittest" version of whatever organism we are talking about. Nothing more or less. Morally neutral. No will or intent.

How does our societal purpose differ from our evolutionary purpose? What do you think our 'societal purpose' is Hak?

fulltothebrim · 20/04/2015 09:54

There is no "purpose- evolution is a set of complex chemical reactions.

capsium · 20/04/2015 09:58

full,Hak suggested there was.

How do you find meaning with 'no purpose', full. You said you have an 'earth bound' spirituality - how does this reconcile with the evolutionary process? Does your spirituality give you meaning? What does your 'spirituality' consist of? Does it include belief in spirits?

niminypiminy · 20/04/2015 10:01

The phrase 'the survival of the fittest' is a classic example of something that cannot be properly understood without thinking about its context

The phrase was coined by Herbert Spencer, the Victorian social theorist. Spencer had read Darwin, but his view of evolution was not Darwinian, because he believed (like the French biologist Lamarck) that an organism's adaptations to its environment could be passed on. This is completely opposite to Darwin, who thought that all variation happened by chance and the only mechanism was inheritance of variations by offspring - those organisms that survived to pass on their variations were the 'successful' ones.

Spencer's phrase, then, described his own understanding of Darwin's idea, in which the idea of adaptation and purpose were important. It's essential to say that for Darwin there is no such thing as adaptation, and there is no such thing as purpose. Evolution has no purpose beyond its own operation. There is no goal towards which it is moving and no end to the process. To speak about our 'evolutionary purpose', therefore, is completely wrong in Darwin's terms (though not in Spencer's or Lamarck's).

Unfortunately, Spencer's phrase was immediately, and has been ever since, taken out of context and misunderstood. In particular it has become the one of the slogans of social Darwinism (the application of the theory of evolution by natural selection to human society) and thus to eugenics.

This, if I may say so, is a really good example of why context is so necessary. Unless 'survival of the fittest' is understood in the context of the Victorian debates over evolution it will be misunderstood.

fulltothebrim · 20/04/2015 10:01

My spirituality is not a belief in supernatural, neither does it give me "meaning" to my life.

capsium · 20/04/2015 10:08

What is your 'spirituality' full?

fulltothebrim · 20/04/2015 11:23

My spirituality is my own personal view of the world and the communication I share with others.

capsium · 20/04/2015 11:41

So, in terms of your kind of spirituality, how does your value system operate, full? How do you decide what to focus your view upon or what to communicate?

fulltothebrim · 20/04/2015 11:49

My value sytem has little to do with my spirituality.

My values stem from my involvement with my community and the interactions I have with others. Same as it works for most of us.

fulltothebrim · 20/04/2015 11:55

I think you are confusing spirituality with religions capsium.

I am not religious, but I can appreciate the magnificence and wonder of this planet and the universe.
I am deeply moved by the elegance and majesty of the ideas that life blooms, that we are sitting on top of a huge planet made of molten metal.
I am moved by beautiful skies, and the elegance of geometry, of the colours that burning metals produce, of beautiful singing voices and the love that parents have for their children.

capsium · 20/04/2015 11:59

So the communications you share with others and your own personal view of the world, which you term your 'spirituality', has nothing to do with your value system. Instead your "values stem from ...[your]... involvement with ...[your]... community and the interactions...[you]... have with others".

I am struggling to understand what you mean, full. Can you clarify?