I have told my DC I don't believe in God. DH thinks their morality is in danger

[BerylStreep]

I have been an atheist since I was 12. DH is catholic, and when we met 13 yrs ago he was a regular churchgoer although hasn't been for the last 6 years or so because of the child abuse scandal. We got married in church, but only because he told me that if we didn't, we wouldn't get married at all. I went along with it because I knew it was important to him, but equally he knew my views.

Anyway, we were out for a meal last night, and I mentioned that DC, 7 & 9 had asked me about a book beside my bed. The Portable Atheist (which incidentally, DH bought for me). They asked me what it meant, and I explained that not all people believe in God, and even those that do, some believe in different Gods. They asked me a direct question if I believed in god, and I answered no, but I believed that some of the things in the bible May have happened and that people's scientific understanding at the time meant that they thought god had done things. We discussed Noah as an example. We talked about how it was fine to believe different things to other people and to respect other peoples views.

I didn't think it was a big issue, in fact I think it healthy that they know there is a different viewpoint. When I mentioned it to DH, he cracked up. He thinks that there is a risk that our DC will grow up not knowing about morality and won't know right from wrong.

An argument followed, where I told him I thought it was ridiculous to suggest that Christian teaching had sole preserve over morality, and that the child abuse that has occurred clearly demonstrated that it hadn't worked in practice.

We spent the rest of the meal in silence. Tbh this is part of a bigger issue with DH at the moment. He is stressed with work, and has been really argumentative and unpleasant to be around. I honestly think that the bigger risk to our DC is seeing his toxic behaviour at the moment, rather than knowing that some people don't believe in god. I just need to vent.

Well done OP on having such a rational and reasonable conversation with your dc. I agree totally on the morality issue too :) and you're also probably right re your DH and the stress. Hopefully things ease up for him soon. Good luck!

If he wants his children to grow up in a monotheist society he's in the wrong country. I am quite sure your children are aware of other religions (my ds is 9 and has learnt about many of them at school already) and will be equally aware of the need to accept different beliefs.

By his logic, leaders such as Gandhi and the Dalai Lama don't know right from wrong. Really? They seem pretty clued up to me. Equally I think the current Pope (more so than previous) has moral authority and a genuine interest in returning the church to good works vs the perpetuation of dogma.

Your dc are reaching an age where they will question the religion they have been brought up in regardless of whether you are a believer or not. These conversations are going to happen - he better get used to it. And for the possibility that his children will ultimately reject his religion. There's that pesky 'free will' thing again.

I am having a similar dilemma at the moment with dd and dm.

Dd is 3 so too young to be learning about these things at school, I don't think it's mentioned at nursery.

Dm was raised a Methodist (as was I until the age of 6 when I refused flat to go to Sunday school brat) although is no longer a regular church goer but is keen to involve dd when she does go to church and likes to take her to the children's services our village church. Not a problem. Dm enjoys it, dd enjoys it. I'm happy with that.

The problem with us is where we vary in out views regarding creationism vs evolution.
dm believes in creationism but talks to dd about it as if it is fact. It is not, evolution is fact, IMO that cannot be argued.

I have no problem with different peoples beliefs and like you op am very open with dd about how people believe different things. I DO have a problem with religion overpowering common sense and think it's dangerous to encourage extreme views especially in the very young.

By all means tell the stories but don't cloud my DDS rational thinking with these 'facts'! Admittedly at 3 this isn't much call for rational thinking but looking ahead it might be!

Well done op, I think you handled it perfectly :)

Many families are made up of partners of different or no faith and respecting each other's belief/unbelief/not sure is an excellent model for children growing up in a multicultural and multifaith society.

It sounds if the OP's husband is very stressed and this has become a flash point. There is a nugget of truth in his argument as a non Christian will be making ethical decisions based on different ethical principals than a Christian. When making a decision about assisted dying, which is one of the hot topics today, a non Christian might want to look at utilitarianism or virtue theory or empathy. They can ignore wrestling with what scripture says in its historical context and whether that is appropriate today. They can also ignore what the tradition of the church says and whether that is appropriate today. As a Christian I take both scripture and traditions into account as well as what science, medicine, psychology have to say on the subject.

Essentially non Christians are as moral as anyone else. They use different arguments to work through moral decisions.

Oh dear, I would be very annoyed with him.

Did he want you to lie? (V ethical!)

I imagine it was a knee jerk reaction and he will change his mind soon...

Maybe your DH should explore his own journey of faith with other Catholics as his beliefs are obviously important to him. At the very least going to Mass will very likely help his stress level. Maybe by being involved in a service group of some kind it might put his current problems at work into some perspective. I respect his response to the child abuse crisis. As a Catholic I know no Catholic who isn't horrified and very angry about what happened. At the same time we are a community which are working through this together. If you remain distant there isn't a way to bring changes and make sure vulnerable children and others are protected.

Regarding Tribpot's comments, I love Pope Francis but his comments and philosophy are completely in line with all the previous Popes - his theology is not a departure. Perhaps non Catholics understand his approach better as Pope Benedict is very intellectual in his expression of the faith at times. Not that Francis is shabby in that department, as a Jesuit he is also very well educated.

The church is doing just as many "good works" as it always was. It is one of the largest (if not the largest) social service organisations in the world. When it comes to evolution for Catholics it is completely compatible with faith. Catholics strongly emphasise faith and reason and that all truth comes from God, that is why we strongly support and emphasise education.

As an atheist I don't get 'offended' - the idea that I don't know right from wrong because I don't believe in gods, fairies or whatever is just laughable.

tell your husband to leave the arsiness in the office. If he has work problems and wants your support, this attitude is not the way to get it.

I thought this was a nice article on the British Humanist Association website - the two essays come from 1955 but make a good case for why religion does not have a monopoly on moral instruction.

humanism.org.uk/humanism/humanism-today/humanists-thinking/margaret-knight-morals-without-religion/

And the American Humanist Association has a set of "commandments" (or better, promises) which sound largely reasonable to me! Although I am not sure that "having lots of friends" is of itself a reasonable thing to promise a child.

little.kidswithoutgod.com

It's tempting to come up with things you could say to him, OP, but I hope that it was just the stress and he'll get past it. After all he knows it's not that cut and dried himself.

Hopefully he'll come around when things calm down.

If he doesn't then you will have to stand your ground. You were being perfectly reasonable with your dc.

my mum was a governor at a local CofE school (she is atheist, and a teacher)

She was on the interview panel for the new head and one of the questions (as a CofE school) was How would you support the moral and spiritual development of the children.

3 of the 4 interviewees assumed they were the same thing, they did not know the difference between moral and spiritual education.
In fact many people do not realise they are not the same thing.

By the way Wetthemogwai, while i believe in evolution I would not be a good scientist if I did not point out that evolution is not a fact it is a theory which best fits the facts available, and as a theory, it too has evolved over time.

How rude of your OH. If he thinks that atheists are immoral it doesn't say much of his standards getting hooked up with a woman of low moral standards. He should get himself to the confession box.

He thinks that there is a risk that our DC will grow up not knowing about morality and won't know right from wrong

Ignoring any deeper philosophical discussion about concepts of absolute right and absolute wrong, I wonder if religious people:

1. realise just how fucking offensive this bullshit is.
2. understand how dodgy it makes them sound, if they need a higher power to keep them in line.

I did not point out that evolution is not a fact

And I would not be a good scientist if I did not point out that evolution is a fact. The fact of evolution is as concrete as the fact of gravity and the fact that the earth goes around the sun.

Evolutionary theory addresses the mechanisms of evolution the fact.

Sorry, OP, didn't really comment constructively.

I think you handled it really well. Thoroughly reasonable.

I have a similar issue too as my DH is Muslim and I am very, very loosely Christian but moving more towards being a non believer.

Trouble is DH is moving the other way, getting stricter religiously.

He wants our DDs to grow up Muslim whereby I cannot understand how you can tell someone ok this is what you believe in, this is what is right.

The DDs have always primarily been looked after by me and I am the one who does school runs etc. they spend a lot of time with me and my family (his are mostly abroad) and are growing up in a white, middle class leafy suburb where their friends are mostly non religious.They go to a C of E school purely because it is an excellent school on our doorstep.

I am becoming more anxious about this and yes we should have discussed this fully before we had the girls.

I love my DH but I do not agree with some of what he believes. I always thought love was enough but I am increasingly becoming unsure.

I also talk to my DDs about different religions and they are very aware that people believe in different things.

I feel DH is blinded sometimes by his religion because he believes that is the absolute truth.

Religion ( or lack of) is one of the crucial factors in my relationships with people. I am an atheist, I could not have a partner who had a faith. It would be unacceptable to me. If I found out a new guy was religious it wouldn't get to a second date, never mind having his children. I don't even have any female friends who are religious.

It sounds like you need to talk about his stress levels and work, and how it is unfair to make religion an excuse to lash out at you when he's pissed off. He needs to discover a way to handle stress without taking it out on you. And he needs to respect your beliefs and moral values as much as you respect his.

I can almost see perhaps how someone brought up in a religion might worry that being brought up without believing absolutely in that religion (or denomination) might leave children without that moral framework. But he needs to understand that the time to demand your (plural) children were brought up as strict Catholics was early on in your relationship, before you actually had children. He can't insist on changing the goalposts now.

He should instead have open and respectful discussions with you about the moral values you teach your children.

Does he seriously think all nations where the predominant religion is Islam, or Judaism, or Bhuddism, or no religion at all, etc. are dens of iniquity where no-one knows right from wrong?

I find it strange and narrow minded to only consider having friends and partners who have the same ideas as you! Whatever will you do if your children get a faith?
Everyone is a free thinker and you get to choose for yourself and not for your children. I know lots of Christians who have atheist children and vice versa. I don't know a single adult who says 'I am a ........... because my mother told me I had to follow her'!
I can't see the obsession that people had with having children think the same. I believe in God- my children don't. So what? ! Am I supposed to be upset and tell them as their mother it is my choice - I bring them up a certain way and mummy knows best!!

Utterly peculiar.
In case of OP all she needs to say is that different people have different beliefs- she thinks......Daddy thinks........ and that they will make up their own minds- and the one SURE thing is that they will!
You give birth- the child is not a possession!

A local vicar had atheist parents. He took himself to church aged 14yrs. How sad if his parents didn't accept him for who he is, but insisted on moulding him to their expectations.

Well, you do have to wonder, if the guy believes that atheists can't tell right from wrong, why he was so unwise as to have children with one

Or even worse disowned him because they couldn't have a relationship with anyone different to them.

I don't understand why anyone thinks religion has anything to do with morality at all.

So many religious teachings are arbitrary and have nothing to do with doing as you would be done by or avoiding hurting other people. Don't eat this, don't eat that, no sex before marriage, no gay sex blah blah. I can't see any morality there at all. And if you're religious, you follow the rules so you can not get into trouble and ultimately so you can go to heaven. That's not moral, that's simply selfish.

If you're not religious then you can actively follow a true moral code that's based on common sense, altruism and genuinely wanting to be good for its own sake.

Look at the laws of the uk for instance. They are based on not causing harm. There's no law that says you can't fornicate or eat prawns or whatever. It would be nonsensical.

I would be spelling this out in no uncertain terms op and asking eh to explain to the dc exactly how being catholic makes him more moral than you.

OP needs to stand firm and be accepted for what she is.

It doesn't have anything to do with morality.