I have told my DC I don't believe in God. DH thinks their morality is in danger

[BerylStreep]

I have been an atheist since I was 12. DH is catholic, and when we met 13 yrs ago he was a regular churchgoer although hasn't been for the last 6 years or so because of the child abuse scandal. We got married in church, but only because he told me that if we didn't, we wouldn't get married at all. I went along with it because I knew it was important to him, but equally he knew my views.

Anyway, we were out for a meal last night, and I mentioned that DC, 7 & 9 had asked me about a book beside my bed. The Portable Atheist (which incidentally, DH bought for me). They asked me what it meant, and I explained that not all people believe in God, and even those that do, some believe in different Gods. They asked me a direct question if I believed in god, and I answered no, but I believed that some of the things in the bible May have happened and that people's scientific understanding at the time meant that they thought god had done things. We discussed Noah as an example. We talked about how it was fine to believe different things to other people and to respect other peoples views.

I didn't think it was a big issue, in fact I think it healthy that they know there is a different viewpoint. When I mentioned it to DH, he cracked up. He thinks that there is a risk that our DC will grow up not knowing about morality and won't know right from wrong.

An argument followed, where I told him I thought it was ridiculous to suggest that Christian teaching had sole preserve over morality, and that the child abuse that has occurred clearly demonstrated that it hadn't worked in practice.

We spent the rest of the meal in silence. Tbh this is part of a bigger issue with DH at the moment. He is stressed with work, and has been really argumentative and unpleasant to be around. I honestly think that the bigger risk to our DC is seeing his toxic behaviour at the moment, rather than knowing that some people don't believe in god. I just need to vent.

If you stop going to church and you know you are an atheist - surely it makes an atheist?
It all goes to prove that children who have the difficult time are those who have parents who bring them into the world and have expectations of how they will turn out.
Those with open minded parents who support the child they have, rather than the one they want, will have it easy.

The horror stories amount to abuse.

It is in the head - no one can 'make' anyone anything
I'm afraid I think this rather a naive view. Familial and societal pressure to confirm or exhibit certain behaviours deemed appropriate is pervasive. And children are the most vulnerable to such pressures.

I appreciate the sentiment of being ones own person, but I think I have a more deterministic outlook on reality.

Conform, not confirm.

A depressing view that no one can be an atheist just because they stop going to church and don't believe in a God.
I think that if I tell my son's that they can't do that because their mother says they can't they will think me a right nutter!
At my age I don't know anyone who has to put up with what their parents or community deem appropriate. If they have had trouble they would have moved away.
I have no idea of the beliefs of my local community. I don't ask and the variety will be huge. If you live in a very narrow community I would recommend getting out early.

Children who have been brought up in a certain way and have conformed generally have a mid life crisis.
Most children parrot 'my mummy thinks' until they go to school when parents hate the fact you get 'miss smith thinks' but by 8 yrs they are generally onto 'I think'.
I can't think of any adults who say 'my mother thinks.....' As if it is of any importance.

A depressing view that no one can be an atheist just because they stop going to church and don't believe in a God
Oh, do belt up. That's not what you said originally, nor what I addressed. May I politely you remind you of your duties re: bearing false witness.

If you don't believe in god/s, you are atheist. Church attendance is correlated, but does not necessarily follow, from ones theistic position.

I have no idea of the beliefs of my local community. I don't ask and the variety will be huge
Well, I'm considering a wider range of things than just religious belief, things like pride in national affiliation and gender role. Everyone is a product of their environment.

I can't think of any adults who say 'my mother thinks.....'
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Of course adults don't say that. Because by the time they reach adulthood, they genuinely think that they themselves think or believe XYZ because that's what they've been told to think or believe

People who are brainwashed (in any context) don't know they've been brainwashed.

Unless you HE and mix with a hand picked group in UK your DC will mix with all sorts.
I shall leave the thread, but I can't see the obsession with censoring what your children will hear because the one sure thing is they will make up their own mind. It might fit your ideas- it might not but I utterly fail to see why it matters! Anyone can be an atheist anytime they want and no one can stop them( they can make it difficult)

Yes I am being 'deliberately obtuse'- you are free to think that if you like.

but I can't see the obsession with censoring what your children will hear
Where have I said that was my approach? Children should be taught about religion and faith.

However, given the choice between the OPs approach (Some people believe...) and that of her DHs (You must believe...), I know which one I think just, fair and appropriate for moulding independent and thoughtful children.

delphin- who the hell is talking about cencorship? I hardly think brining up a child without religious indoctrination is censorship.

Quite a leap there to try to justify your position.

A fine example of someone who is following christian values.

Why is it that on MN, the general consensus is that everyone who attends church (or equivalent) is an extreme devotee of whichever religion/denomination they practice?

I am a regular church-goer (C of E), and DH is an atheist. Our approach to bringing up our children is much what my parents did: the children come with me to church on a Sunday while DH is at work, for as long as that's what they want to do. Growing up, I stopped going but was never really sure whether I believed or not, then came back as an adult; my sister stopped going at 12 and has never looked back. Clearly we weren't indoctrinated to the point that we were unable to make our own decisions.

We also teach our DC's about other faiths and practices and that many people, like DH, don't believe at all. I think it's very healthy to teach your children to respect people whatever their beliefs.

Why is it that on MN, the general consensus is that everyone who attends church (or equivalent) is an extreme devotee of whichever religion/denomination they practice?

In a country of self-confessed "cultural" Christians, of the hatch-match-dispatch sort, anyone who regularly attends church is an extreme devotee

We also teach our DC's about other faiths and practices and that many people, like DH, don't believe at all. I think it's very healthy to teach your children to respect people whatever their beliefs

And I'm sure both of these statements apply equally to your standard atheist.

"Delphinium is, of course, being "deliberately obtuse". It's what she does. Combined with Strawman, obviously.

We're not saying that children shouldn't have any knowledge of religion, merely that most seem to be brought up with attempted indoctrination. Teaching them about all religions and none and then letting them decide when they are adults would leave most religions with a minimal congregation; whereas getting them involved in comforting rituals and telling them that they will be saved and others are going to burn in hell, or, in the case of Islam, that their family will murder them if they leave, is guaranteed to keep the quotas higher."

This is a perfect, textbook example of a straw man argument. What BigDorrit has done is to imagine the most extreme position that a Christian or Muslim might take up, and with no evidence that it is a widespread part of parenting amongst Christians or Muslims, indeed no evidence at all, imputed it to all Christians and Muslims.

The straw man is allied to a classic false dichotomy, in which two opposite positions positions are presented as the only alternatives -- whereas, of course, there are many possible other postions accounting for the majority of parenting practices.

Finally, there is a classic case of inability to move beyond the grounding assumptions of one's own position, in which it is imagined that for atheists there is a value-free way of 'telling about' religion entirely untainted by one's own world-view and atheists naturally will do this because they have no world-view; but that Christians and other people of faith will inevitably indoctrinate because everything they say is shaped by their world view. I've heard it said many times that atheists have no beliefs, no world-view. If this is so, why then do atheists all say the same things? There is a strong social component to all world-views -- and that goes for atheism as well as religious beliefs. However, if you are determined never to move outside the parameters of your own arguments then you will never concede this.

Just to add my voice to Minty's above. My family is similar in that I am a Christian and go to a Methodist church and usually take the kids along with me. My dh, though he probably wouldn't quite call himself atheist, is highly sceptical and not at all interested in attending church himself. I try to be honest with the kids about what I believe, while making it clear that many other people would not agree with me. I've overheard dd asking dh a few questions and sometimes I have felt a bit sad at the answers he's given her, but I've not said anything about it, to dd or dh. Dh has a right to his beliefs and to share them with the kids, as much as I do. I'm sure there are times when he feels uncomfortable with what I might say to the kids about my beliefs, so I think it's really important that dh and I allow each other to be honest and don't try to censor each other.

Good luck BerylStreep in finding a way that works for all in your family.

" why then do atheists all say the same things? " nimin- where do you get that from?

The only thing that unites atheists is their lack of belief, they have no dogma or doctrice so how can you suggest they "all say the same thing"

Maid that was sort of my point. This thread reads like all people of faith bring up their children to believe in this and nothing else; that they will indocrinate and even according to pp 'brainwash' them so that their own choice and free will goes out of the window.

My experience is that Christians, Jews and Atheists alike (I'm afraid I don't have much experience with other faiths - there aren't that many around here) bring up their children to be respectful of other cultures and belief systems, and allow them the freedom to find their own.

Oh, and yes, fair point on the devotee business

"My experience is that Christians, Jews and Atheists alike (I'm afraid I don't have much experience with other faiths"

Just to point out atheism is not a faith.

Exhibit 1: "The only thing that unites atheists is their lack of belief, they have no dogma or doctrice so how can you suggest they "all say the same thing""

The idea that you have no dogma is itself a dogma. The idea that atheism is merely a lack of belief is itself a belief.

Try to step outside of your own parameters -- that's what real thinking is.

Oh for goodness sake, really?

Pedantry in this context is just pointless particularly given the number of spelling/grammar errors in your own posts.

mimin- you are suggesting that no dogma is dogma? That no belief is a belief.

You haven't been drinking this afternoon have you?