women wearing burqa, this riles me

[southeastastra]

i am sorry to be saying this as i know we should all be equal and embrace diversity but when i see women dressed in this it raises my hackles and i want to get out and rant at them. i can't just think it's okay in the western world.

am i allowed this view on mn?

You think there was a time when Turkey had no prostitution or casual sex?

How about rape and child abuse?

I don't think you read my post properly. I have not said there was no prostitution.

Maybe go back and read it again, then reply if you have anything meaningful to say on the subject of differences in Western Europe and Eastern Europe/Middle East re honour, shame, etc.

"Toytown" and "Narnia" ffs

Cote, I have re-read your post and don't feel I can respond in the way that you hope I will as I don't understand what point your are making. I can't tell if that's because I'm tired from trying to keep up with the thread or because of the way you have worded it.

But to go back to Garlic's point about honour:
The fear I perceive is not a direct fear of personal violence, it's a fear of 'shame' - of loss of 'modesty'.
Did you read justanuther's post? What she says represents what a lot of muslim women experience. She chose to cover. Her parents objected to it, but she still wanted to. Where does fear, of violence or shame, come into that? Yes, she chose to because she wanted to be modest in the way that Islam suggests followers should be, but I'm not so sure that she would have experienced shame if she hadn't.

Also, as far as I can see no one has addressed peacefuloptimist's point about different perceptions of women's rights. She put what I had been unsuccessfully trying to argue in far clearer and less angry words:
My problem with this is you are using your own cultural baggage in your interpretation of the reasons for covering up ... The women's rights movement in the Western world wanted a sexual revolution and all that entailed ... But thats not what everyone wants
That is exactly the point. A lot of people on here are arguing against covering from a western "feminist" standpoint and then claiming that if you don't agree with that, you are not upholding feminist values. What you actually mean is that you are not upholding Western feminist values. They are different. And yes, we are arguing against your values while living in the West, but let's be realistic, Britain is about as multicultural as it gets. I am surprised that so many people are unable to understand that you are going to have different cultural perspectives on different things. It is not fair to say that you are not a feminist if you are not looking at feminism through Western eyes. As I said before, if that is what feminism is about then I say fuck feminism.

Ihave - I wasn't talking about covering at all, but about the general difference in attitudes towards the concepts of honour, shame, etc which garlic talked about in her post. Which is why I gave examples of one-night-stands and vomiting in the streets.

BreakingDad77 quilliam ARE right-wing and have recently teamed up with The Clarion Fund. If you look on twitter they are always fraternising with'P.A.I' folk (patriots against Islam) and others. Yet moderate Muslims who ask perfectly valid, politely worded questions, are blocked in a heartbeat. They have also advocated spying on individuals and communities. Just because they misinterpret some ayahs of the Qur'an and campaign for 'reform' doesn't make them not right wing. I was blocked by Maajid Nawaz because he stated he plans to introduce a new commentary, or tafsir of the Qur'an (in English) to replace the existing 'one'. Only thing is there isn't just one standard translation of the Quran nor is there only one standard commentary. All I asked was how he would get his version of the commentary to be the only one allowed in the UK because from how he was speaking this was the intended goal. He went off on one and blocked me lol.

Also breakingdad if you think black should be banned for a Muslim women's dress then are you going to do the same for Orthodox Jewish women? Nuns? Or is it only Muslims who are to be dictated to regarding which colours they can wear or not? I don't only wear black but when I do wear it, it is because it's the most practical colour-especially with children. Also a white niqab looks a bit Kkk-ish IMHO

Cote I see. Well that's another argument for another thread I guess, as I have opinions on what I now understand your point to be but don't want to go off topic on here.

It would be interesting if someone could respond to the other two points I made in my previous post though.

May I repeat, Europeans attach great importance to being able to see people's faces. I assume you are Europeans, too, but I'm talking about our general culture - something I shouldn't have to spell out, but am trying to protect my head from further bangs against a brick wall!
Bank robbers & rapists wear balaclavas. We fear "faceless authorities" and those who "won't show their face". We show hostility with stony face or a blank face. Those aren't just words, it's a fundamental part of who we are.

I agree there are interesting conversations to be had about feminism in various cultures; I've said so often. But we're not even getting to a simple understanding here about basic societal values, let alone the nuances of women's rights.

Spot on garlic

Where does fear, of violence or shame, come into that? Yes, she chose to because she wanted to be modest in the way that Islam suggests followers should be

Fear of shame does come into it, because wanting to be modest in the way that Islam suggests means protecting her awrah. (Sorry if I used the word wrongly there) ... protecting one's physical 'modesty' only has meaning when there's a potential for shame attached to one's body.

Thanks for seeing what I was on about, Cote. And lol at Turkey = Toyland

But in the post that I quoted, you weren't talking about a fear of faceless authorities. You were pitying women because you felt they had to show honour or face shame. That is the point that I am interested in discussing.

By mentioning hiding faces, you must be talking about a burkha which is rarely seen in Britain (I don't think I've ever seen anyone wear a burkha in RL.) I see niqabs being worn occasionally, but even that's rare. But the thread seems to have gone on since discussing faces being covered underneath burkhas and niqabs to covering in general. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you talk about women covering to prevent them from "shame", you are talking about hijabs, abayahs, niqabs and burkhas, right?

The "basic societal values" argument is a different one to the one that I am trying to understand. (Yes, it has also been discussed on this thread but I have intentionally not involved myself with that stem.) There is no reason that the "nuances of women's rights" can't be discussed without discussing what you have gone back to.

I don't give a shit about hijab, actually. It looks weird, to me, to be wearing a headscarf indoors, but meh.
It's the facecovering in particular.
With robes, I tend to agree with breaking: he didn't say black should be banned, ffs, he said a large expanse of any one colour attracts attention. There are plenty of normal Northern European outfits that are like robes. But, hell, wear the visual equivalent of a black cloak over a long black dress if you want.
Just don't hide your face ... unless it's freezing outside!

Just don't hide your face ... unless it's freezing outside!

And that is why I give up. You can't have a discussion with someone who thinks it's perfectly acceptable to tell someone what they should do. But, hey, it's your country, right? Who are we to say that others should be able to uphold their own cultural values when living in Britain.

Oh, for heaven's sake. I should have said 'please'

No, I don't think saying 'please' would have made much of a difference, Garlic. That was just one part of your post that showed how superior you feel your customs are. Perhaps if everyone starts wearing "normal Northern European" outfits you'll feel more at ease. Either that or everyone could just stick to wearing their cultural clothes when they go back to their own countries. When in Rome and all that.

You are able to pursue your own cultural values. This conversation has never been about banning the niqab. It's about the social implications of veiling in the UK (other than to protect from cold) with special regard to feminism.

As Martorana said, Please can we lay to rest this odd notion that wanting to discuss the political, cultural and social impact of covering is synonymous with "ban the burkha". It makes any sort of sensible discussion impossible.

But I am once again concluding that the observant muslims on this thread are incapable of encompassing any other perspective than their own, instantly re-interpreting all questions & comments as hostile.

It's making me feel less well-disposed to covered women, tbh. Well done.

I didn't say that you said to ban it, however you gave the suggestion of wearing 'normal northern European' outfits.

I can't speak for the "observant muslims" on this thread because I am not one. I can agree with you that this thread has made me feel less well-disposed to a certain type of person. For you, it's muslim women, for me, it's white feminists. (No, that doesn't mean "feminists who are white", that would be ridiculous. That means women who think the white woman's way is the right woman's way.)

that showed how superior you feel your customs are.

I've sat with this for a minute, and I'm still angry. "My" customs are the customs of the country in which you live.

The quoted comment expresses a 'fuck you' attitude.

Nice.

You have got it in a nutshell, Garlic.

As mentioned a few posts earlier, I certainly do have a "fuck you" attitude to the notion of white feminism. As you have a "fuck you" attitude to any woman who claims to be a feminist but doesn't conform to the western woman's idea of feminism.

Cross-posted, Fifth. I realise I haven't the faintest clue where you're coming from on this. All you've really done is attack.

I don't think I have done nothing but attack. Yes, my last few posts to you have been more hostile as you showed nothing but ignorance in the post at 13:23, and it pissed me off. Prior to that, I was interested in everyone's points (although failing to understand them), and keen to have someone respond to the points that I and other posters had made in response to some of the ones that you and others made.

Why are you confused as to where I'm coming from? Because I'm not muslim but not agreeing with you?

I note when I talk about an actual Muslim woman who is being oppressed, none of those wanting to "save" Muslim women show any concern.

Garlic why do you think Muslims aren't part of "your" culture? I am British and culturally so in every way. I reject this gatekeeping of British culture by self-appointed guardians.

This thread has gone off track. It's not about banning any clothing. It's also about burkas and any other full face covering which I understand is a niquab. It's not about head coverings in general.

As we have established that some fully veiled women choose to fully cover their faces, without coercion, can you tell me why you choose to do it?

Neither any religion, nor society, in the UK expects this. I am therefore baffled why someone would choose to cover their face in the UK, should they be able to have that choice.

I have a number of friends who are Islamic and who dress differently according to their preferences but for practical reasons none chooses to cover her face.

I was very interested in the comment up thread about previous generations of Muslim families disapproving of the full covering. Why do you think this is? Does it not suggest that across all cultures the face is universally accepted as being a means of communication? That to attend a place of employment, or fully interact in our daily lives requires us to look at each others faces?

Where I live there are increasing numbers of fully veiled women who, for practical reasons, are completely segregated from the rest of the community.

Masks at Halloween are fine - the rest of the time they are sinister.

I never said I think Muslims aren't part of "my" culture, Gosh. Of course they/you are.

Neither have I said I'm not well-disposed to muslim women. I dislike face coverings.

It's making me feel less well-disposed to covered women, tbh.
GarlicAprilShowers Fri 11-Apr-14 13:38:59

Ok, granted not all muslim women cover, but a lot do. Not all covered women wear face-coverings either, but you have said you're not 'well-disposed' to them whether they do or they don't.